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Esenthel Editor 2.0
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Esenthel Offline
Administrator

Post: #1
Esenthel Editor 2.0
The secret is here!
What I've been working on lately is completely redesigned Editor, since it works completely differently I've decided to release it as separate product (available in Esenthel Store http://www.esenthel.com/?id=store ). From now I'll be releasing updates to both Esenthel Engine SDK and new Editor. The new Editor features new licensing plan (buy once, and make as many games as you want, it's per-seat and not per-project like the SDK), it will have programming too.

The editor is currently in Alpha state, and still lacks some functionalities (read more details here - http://www.esenthel.com/?id=editions )

Key Features:
Fully collaborative game development:
  • Automatic, real-time and in-background game resource and world synchronization between all game developers
  • Ability to work both offline and online (after connecting to server application the editor will automatically start synchronizing the changes that occured when you were offline)
  • Account management for game developers (email, password, access - no access, read-only, normal, admin)
Automatic (and in background) world building:
  • All world areas are built (compiled into more optimized form) on the fly during world editing stage, now you don't need to manually build worlds before playing them
Greatly simplified resource importing/processing:
  • Most resources are imported in background thread to avoid pauses during importing
  • Easier setting of material textures
  • Easier setting of mesh LOD's
  • Applying custom transformation (like rescale) to a model after importing will automatically transform its skeleton, physical bodies and all animations
  • Easier heightmap importing (target areas are highlighted with red color, import progress is displayed on the screen)
Easier resource management:
  • All resources are visible in Project View as nodes
  • Resources can be re-arranged at will (renamed, moved to different folders, etc) without the need of making any extra changes (both in resources or game code)
  • Removed resources can be restored
  • Enums are now created directly in the Editor using visual editors
Easier project management:
  • You can switch between projects and create new ones directly in the Editor without restarting it
Better interface:
  • Interface is focused on functionalities that are used most often
  • More focus on mouse usage and drag and drop functionality

Please try it and let me know what you think.
09-15-2012 09:45 PM
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Harry Offline
Member

Post: #2
RE: Esenthel Editor 2.0
Firstly when I saw new Editor on the movie I thought that it could be worse than old Editor. But after few seconds when first model was loaded I think that Editor 2.0 looks very good. I see some new options, but if someone knows how to use Editor 1.0 he will feel like at home. Few things looks faster to do or looks more clear (for example material editor). I really like synchronization and building worlds in background without any additional work smile

One thing I don't like is new license plan for EE 2.0. Now it will be harder for small teams to make commercial games on EE. That's why I add question number 3 smile

I have some questions about new Editor ang changes which you made:
1. New licensing plan is only for Editor 2.0?
2. Are you going to add new functionalities to Editor 1.0 too? Let's say particle editor for example.
3. Will Editor 1.0 be also updated (when some important changes will be added like last update object changes access)?
4. Will Editor 2.0 be also available for non-licensed developers in future?
5. What about current licensed developers? They have access to Editor 2.0 or they have to purchase license for EE 2.0 first?

P.S. Few days ago I was checking Gui images in engine.pak and I saw new icons. I don't see them in Editor so I thought that you want use them soon. And I was right grin
(This post was last modified: 09-15-2012 10:35 PM by Harry.)
09-15-2012 10:29 PM
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Esenthel Offline
Administrator

Post: #3
RE: Esenthel Editor 2.0
1) Yes (1.0 is per project, 2.0 is per-seat)
2) 1.0 already has Particle Editor
3) Both 1.0 and 2.0 will be updated (they share the same EE headers, libs, functions),
4) In the future there will be a demo version (with many limitations), but not yet
5) 2.0 is completely new product, if someone wants to use it, he must purchase the license, but until it's finished I've set a low price (99$), later it will be higher (150-200)
09-15-2012 10:41 PM
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Harry Offline
Member

Post: #4
RE: Esenthel Editor 2.0
Thanks for quick response. For question 2 I've made a mistake (I have speciall effect editor which is on the roadmap on my mind smile). Anyway I think that you gave me answer in question 3 smile

I think that this Editor will be good bait for more developers smile
09-15-2012 10:48 PM
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runewake2 Offline
Member

Post: #5
RE: Esenthel Editor 2.0
The new editor looks nice, though I feel it kind of distracts from more important issues on the Roadmap.

I do have one question though: is the goal of the new editor to replace the old editor? Or is it designed to serve as a separate tool and come with separate licensing requiring you to purchase source and other features previously included in the older license as separate products via the store?

Obviously the licenses are separate right now, but as someone looking into purchasing an Esenthel License, I am concerned by this. Will I be forced to choose between coding or editors or will the two be merged over time?
09-15-2012 11:55 PM
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knocks Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #6
RE: Esenthel Editor 2.0
Automatic (and in background) world building is a great and most needed addition, but coming at extra cost is disappointing.
09-16-2012 03:38 AM
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aceio76 Offline
Source Licensee

Post: #7
RE: Esenthel Editor 2.0
It's very nice to see movement within the engine toolset (which includes the editor, even if this is a separate editor that does many similar things as the first version).

I do have to ask, however, if it makes sense to maintain 2 different editors (even if they do share the same core libs)? And this new editor probably makes sense to some new users, but for others like myself who is already licensed (company license nonetheless), it doesn't make much sense to invest in.

I think many people would agree that they would spend money when they think it's a good investment.

For myself as a company-licensed user, the features intended to be included in this new editor are stuff that was long asked for by many other licensed users (I for one have mentioned issues with Syncing data between users and the server a number of times).

Because of this, is there any intention of allowing existing licensees to upgrade to this new editor at a lower rate (less for company licensees and a bit more for personal licensees maybe)? And if there is a possibility to upgrade, then I see most people would go towards this new editor and eventually make the old editor obsolete so Esenthel would only have to support 1 editor instead of 2.

I think having to support 2 Editors would mean that the old editor will most likely have less refined features, thus making it more unattractive. But also, having to support 2 editors could likely mean less time to perform the optimizations that have been put into the upper section of the road map (albeit it's been a number of months since that was done and other "more" important things have been done instead).

I understand the need to monetize the engine. I'm onboard with that. But I feel this last move with this new editor and the new licensing is in enough ways have "screwed" the existing licensees, and because of this, it might be tough to argue that many [existing licensees] will purchase the new editor. I strongly feel there should be a compromise, again, such as maybe allowing the existing licensees to upgrade (one time cost and different amount for Company and Personal users). Then eventually sunset the old editor to be replaced with the new one.

I also wonder how other licensees feel about this? Do post your concerns here. This is constructive and we're here to help Esenthel, because helping Esenthel only helps all of us who are already invested in it.
(This post was last modified: 09-16-2012 05:15 AM by aceio76.)
09-16-2012 04:24 AM
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Zervox Offline
Source Licensee

Post: #8
RE: Esenthel Editor 2.0
(09-16-2012 04:24 AM)aceio76 Wrote:  ..snip..

As a fellow Company Licensee, I agree with you Aceio76, well put.
(This post was last modified: 09-16-2012 05:02 AM by Zervox.)
09-16-2012 04:50 AM
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Rollcage Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #9
RE: Esenthel Editor 2.0
Hey, looking at the video it looks like a big improvement! One thing I've always thought needed changing with version 1.0 is the hotkeys. You need to make them more uniform and standard compared to other windows programs. Undo should be Ctrl+Z, save should be Ctrl+S, load Ctrl+L. It just makes more sense and new users coming to the software don't have to relearn all the hot keys because it will be natural and inline with other software. That's one of the biggest improvements I think you could make aswell as having rightclick function how it does in other programs (bring up a menu with options) this way you could select an object and right click on the world and have -place here as well as other options.

Just an idea. Looks good though. I agree with the comments on company licensees, but I will probably get it at final release regardless
(This post was last modified: 09-16-2012 06:13 AM by Rollcage.)
09-16-2012 06:05 AM
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scotty1121 Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #10
RE: Esenthel Editor 2.0
in regards to aceio76 i agree on many of your points, I really feel company licencees are being put to the side for this editor We can make 1 project and people who purchase this editor can make as many projects as they want and for a lower price.
Although i like a lot of the new features, I think this will do more harm than good, you'll be dividing the developer community into esenthel 1.0 and esenthel 2.0, the people who use 1.0 may ask for help in the editor for example, and someone with esenthel 2.0 will be like "this is how you do this" and it will be completely wrong. because of how different it is. I hope you take this into consideration smile.
09-16-2012 12:55 PM
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Esenthel Offline
Administrator

Post: #11
RE: Esenthel Editor 2.0
Let me clear up any confusion.

The full price per-seat of EE 2.0 will be 150-200$.

But I am offering promotional discounted price of 99$ on following terms:
1. anyone can buy it from now till the time of release (plus around 1 week after that), this promotion is because you're pre-ordering the engine in alpha state, which is still in progress and not yet fully functional
or
2. current licensed developers can buy it from now till time of release (plus 6-12 months after that), this promotion is because you have a license which you want to exchange to esenthel 2.0 (after such upgrade your previous license will be invalid)

These 2 promotions cannot be combined together.

You are being offered around half the price discount.

(also there won't be any confusion between 1.0 and 2.0 support, because once 2.0 is completed, it's possible that I will no longer sell 1.0 to new customers, however I will STILL be providing updates for 1.0 to existing customers)
09-16-2012 02:40 PM
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aceio76 Offline
Source Licensee

Post: #12
RE: Esenthel Editor 2.0
Hi Esenthel, for option #2, is it still per user or one flat fee to upgrade?

And out of curiosity, why is the price the same ($99) for licensed and non-licensed users? For example, we paid $750 for the company license, then a few months later the price was downgraded to $500 (and I don't believe many complained although it was a bitter taste). Now, if this new licensing requires per-user, we have to pay an additional $99xNumberOfUsers. I foresee some teams potentially could be paying close to the same amount they already paid for with their company license. I feel that would be like a slap in the face :(
(09-16-2012 02:40 PM)Esenthel Wrote:  ... this promotion is because you're pre-ordering the engine in alpha state, ...

Hi Esenthel, just to clarify, are you building a new engine or is it really just a new editor? I'm actually asking for others who are asking this exact thing, so I thought I'd ask for clarification.

Thanks in advance.
(This post was last modified: 09-16-2012 03:12 PM by aceio76.)
09-16-2012 02:57 PM
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paviii Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #13
RE: Esenthel Editor 2.0
I am interested in the new editor with the work flow changes and the ability for team members to work on the project real time and see the updates instantly. I am however concerned about the previous expenditure for the license with now another outlay in cash. I am concerned that this will become a periodic occurrence in which we get caught in a trap of constantly spending for the latest new editor/engine rather than seeing incremental upgrades to a system that was working well previously.

While my team is only two people currently I am curious if it will be necessary to shell out $198 to get both seats or am I upgrading $99 to have both seats. I am assuming the former which concerns me. While I might be willing to pay for the new editor, that does not necessarily hold true for my other team member which will be an issue for our project. At that point we will just stay with the original editor and "hope for the best".

I basically agree with aceion that this does feel a bit like a slap in the face but I also concur that Esenthel needs to make money to maintain development. It just does not feel quite right to me even with the alpha discount.

My two cents, and looking forward to the discussion.
09-16-2012 04:09 PM
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yvanvds Offline
Source Licensee

Post: #14
RE: Esenthel Editor 2.0
I'll try and add another viewpoint to the discussion. I do think the 'slap in the face' is a bit much. For these reasons:

1. I assume that engine improvements will be added independent of which editor you use. So you can still keep working with the old one for at least a reasonable time.

2. I bought a license because, after evaluation, I was convinced that this environment was suitable to create my current project. The fact that there's also another editor now does not change that.

3. The current license is valid for only ONE commercial project. And (2) means I am able to complete that project with it. Afterwards it becomes invalid and I'd have to buy a new one anyway. At that time I can buy a 2.0 license for my next projects and have the advantage that I don't need a new one anymore for every project.

4. This way of licensing for a certain version of a product is not THAT awkward. I have similar options when a new version of Windows, Adobe suite, Max etc. comes out. I can be content with what I have, or be seduced by the new possibilities of the new version and pay for an upgrade.

My four cents :-)
09-16-2012 04:40 PM
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Esenthel Offline
Administrator

Post: #15
RE: Esenthel Editor 2.0
Thank you ! smile That's exactly how I look at it too.

(on a side note, when posting this thread, I was hoping the discussion would focus more on new cool features, and people could add some ideas/suggestions what could be done to make it even better)
09-16-2012 04:51 PM
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