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The Kingdom Of Soul
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Pixel Perfect Offline
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Post: #241
RE: The Kingdom Of Soul
Thanks for the response Zervox and Esenthel smile

Regarding the 2013 suggestion whilst I hate shutting off possible solutions I agree it would probably take a lot of work with no guarantee of success in the end. I'm not even sure the EKI lib would be any more compatible with 2013 as it was built to work with 2008 but that at least would be easily tested.

It was indeed a shame that EKI One was bought out, but Artificial Technology could no longer survive once the venture capitalists pulled their financial support. Masa at least rescued some of the technology although, in my opinion, threw away some of the more useful functionality such as the ambient system which made EKI One so powerful.

Having more time in front of me I may re-evaluate what's available in the current marketplace to see if there are other solutions, including possibly taking a look at Masa Life in more detail. As you mentioned Zervox the product doesn't look to have been actively marketed or developed in recent years.
11-30-2016 11:08 AM
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Zervox Offline
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Post: #242
RE: The Kingdom Of Soul
I'd suggest atleast trying to contact them and ask for an evaluation kit, for all we know they support everything Eki One did(afterall it is supposed to be collective of functionalities), I am not sure what the ambient system you speak of is so this is an uncertain factor.

but do hope you find somekind of alternative or solution so you can benefit from upgrades in more than just the engine. smile
11-30-2016 03:30 PM
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Pixel Perfect Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #243
RE: The Kingdom Of Soul
(11-30-2016 03:30 PM)Zervox Wrote:  ... for all we know they support everything Eki One did(afterall it is supposed to be collective of functionalities), I am not sure what the ambient system you speak of is so this is an uncertain factor...

Unfortunately I do know first hand that not all the functionality from EKI One was transferred to Masa life as I had a fairly close working relationship with Artificial Technology's CEO and their Lead Developer whilst integrating EKI One into Leadwerks, both of whom went on to manage the fusion of EKI One technology and Masa technology to produce Masa Life. Presumably because not all elements of EKI One fitted the more focused/specific application Masa were aiming at.

However, Masa Life did benefit from the use of Behaviour Trees, as opposed to Hierarchical FSMs as was the case with EKI One, and does contain a lot of the core functionality of EKI One. So, as you rightly point out, is definitely worth evaluating and not simply dismissing!

The Ambience system in EKI One is a way of scripting islands of ambient behaviour for NPCs for representing everyday type behaviours which become active (as a whole) as the player gets within a certain configurable range. The system runs along side their more standard FSM system for building behaviours but is instead based on a series of scene, scenario and plot mechanisms in which roles and behaviours are defined for Actors based around configurable actions and NPC types assigned to these roles. No specific NPC is assigned to a particular role, instead NPCs with types that match the roles requirements will simply fill vacancies available to them at run time.

You can break NPCs out of their ambient roles at any time and have them switch to FSM scripted behaviour, say when under attack, and then drop back into the ambient system once the danger was over.

The system allows for quite sophisticated emulation of mass background behaviour and also using the Plot system allows great support for cut scene management.

Other interesting functionality includes configurable senses and reactions to sensory perception. So hungry NPCs for example can home in on the smell of food. Or Guards react to a nearby noise or disturbance.

EKI One of course supports its own pathfinding and steering system with configurable elements on an individual actor basis.

It is sad that the product development ended as the underlying design is so well implemented. But it's a hard industry for small companies to survive in!
11-30-2016 09:42 PM
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Zervox Offline
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Post: #244
RE: The Kingdom Of Soul
Ambience system sounds like a skill/profession to select what it needs to do and what it can do? so it is a global behavior tree which works as a AI scheduler to fill certain AIs to their tasks(I am guessing this was rather specfic in itself so maybe this is why this was excluded)

So EKI One actually included a need-want-greed behavior, this is something you would be able to do even if it was not a specific part of the library with behavior trees.
http://www.lifeai.com/download.html
I assume this would atleast work partially to that or give you the idea how to set up your own global behavior tree for such functionality(even if MASA doesn-t support it natively, however it would be weird if it didn-t as it is supposed to be able to get people back to patrolling(in military behaviors) after an engagement, or get medical treatment), organizing attack groups/squads.

This is just tearing it down to a minimal set of what it sounds like they represents though as I have no experience with either EKI One or Masa.

Also considering that Masa is geared toward military simulation to my knowledge I am quite certain it would include some form of sensory system.

Yes, it is very sad to see middlewares to be usurped and then forgotten/get lots of its features removed, in some cases they are just bought and never actually made into a new product also.
(This post was last modified: 12-01-2016 01:18 AM by Zervox.)
12-01-2016 01:16 AM
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Pixel Perfect Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #245
RE: The Kingdom Of Soul
I agree completely, it's not so much that these behaviours can't be replicated elsewhere it's more down to the quality of the toolsets to aid the design. I guess I just found EKI One's implementation of the tools particularly nice.

Regarding the sensory system, I don't know if the EKI system was transferred or not but like you I'm sure Masa Life will have something in place as that seems fairly fundamental requirement.

All will become clearer following a proper evaluation smile

Thanks for the link to LifeAI, that looks interesting too. I've never looked at any AI systems that including learning capability / neural nets etc.
12-01-2016 11:08 AM
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Zervox Offline
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Post: #246
RE: The Kingdom Of Soul
it is machine learning in the simplest way possible(if you can call it simplepfft), it basically finds out by using the different actions and traits you have given it through weighted distribution.

so you give two traits, happiness with a 0.6(60%) and hunger with 1(100%).
you make it so happiness decreases over time.
you give it two actions, eat and work.
work increases happiness and increases hunger.
hunger decreases hunger, the learning part is that it does a correlation to what increases what.

the correlation would be eat until hunger is satisfied.
during which time happiness has a weight of 60%(so a little above average need to be happy) when it goes beneath that he will do some work until hunger which is 100% important to satisfy for him giving him more actions which might decrease hunger and increase happiness or decrease both but of some other necessity it will start balancing these.
(This post was last modified: 12-01-2016 12:57 PM by Zervox.)
12-01-2016 12:23 PM
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Pixel Perfect Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #247
RE: The Kingdom Of Soul
Nicely explained ... thanks smile
12-01-2016 01:08 PM
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