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Esenthel Store open to everyone
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Esenthel Offline
Administrator

Post: #46
RE: Esenthel Store open to everyone
Hi Zervox!
Why so negative? I'm doing my best to develop the Store to work best in the interest of users and me.
Please let me clarify some things:
14) This is just a safety that you won't sue me, take any legal action against me, so I can operate the Store without fear that one day a highly unlikely glitch will happen or some hacker breaks into the Store, and I end up in court because of that. I am of course doing my best to make the Store as secure as possible, as I am selling my own items there as well. So it's in best interest for you and me that everything works smoothly. Things that are covered here, relate to events that will most likely never happen at all. No, you will not have to support non paying customers.
12) Just because I can use the items doesn't mean that I become their copyright owner and will resell them. It is just the same as if I would buy the item myself. Once you purchase items you can't resell them.

Of course you can make bundles of items:
Item 1 - Character Model
Item 2 - Sword Model
Item 3 - Character and Sword Model (Bundle)

Sorry to hear that you won't be using the Store, but I see that other people really like the new addition, so at least that's good smile

Everybody! - looking forward to seeing your items there smile
11-12-2013 10:15 PM
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Zervox Offline
Source Licensee

Post: #47
RE: Esenthel Store open to everyone
Not negative, but from experience when legal agreements are done I am very cautious and as with all agreements the clauses is added together and can be loopholed between, I hope you see what I mean by quoting multiple clauses together.

It's the loopholes which are really worrisome. From any person who set out to sell products or a company selling products you don't want loopholes to be abused.

Since I have to follow my country's laws, because of how for example 14. and 2. works together and I decide to not support a person who used a glitch causing the product to be free instead of its original price to get the product I would get neck deep in legal issues.
11-12-2013 10:35 PM
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Esenthel Offline
Administrator

Post: #48
RE: Esenthel Store open to everyone
Big Congratulations to Tottel for submitting the very first item since opening Esenthel Store to everyone! smile
That was quick!
You can see his creation over here http://www.esenthel.com/?id=store&item=50
11-12-2013 10:44 PM
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Esenthel Offline
Administrator

Post: #49
RE: Esenthel Store open to everyone
For those that are unfamiliar with Esenthel Editor, I've prepared a noob-friendly tutorial on how to upload items to the store over here - http://youtu.be/YhyJh1P4MO8
11-13-2013 03:45 AM
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Rubeus Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #50
RE: Esenthel Store open to everyone
I agree that there should be a method for updating code in the store. What if Tottel found a bug in his code? I would like to see the option to upload updates, and for buyers to download all preceding versions of the pack-much the same way you have the options to download the different versions of EE 2.0.
11-13-2013 05:42 AM
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Esenthel Offline
Administrator

Post: #51
RE: Esenthel Store open to everyone
Hi! EE Store does support updating your items and files! smile
11-13-2013 06:08 AM
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AndrewBGS Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #52
RE: Esenthel Store open to everyone
I agree with Zervox, the terms do allow for several loopholes.
However, for me this is about TRUST. I get what mr. Esenthel is trying to do, and although he might be able to take advantage of this I kinda trust a total stranger I never met that he won't. Might have something to do with me sending him a lot of money on paypal for absolutely nothing and just trusting him to send me the licence afterwards... grin Which he did. So I trust him. I might regret it at some point, but for now he has my full support.

By the way, really great job! The shop is awesome, and I can't wait to have something to put up there; or try tottel's code, which seems very useful.

One question: to sell something there, should I have any marketing-finanical or whatsoever licencing, or just owning what I sell is enough?
11-13-2013 09:23 AM
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Esenthel Offline
Administrator

Post: #53
RE: Esenthel Store open to everyone
(11-13-2013 09:23 AM)AndrewBGS Wrote:  One question: to sell something there, should I have any marketing-finanical or whatsoever licencing, or just owning what I sell is enough?
You just need to have copyrights to the items that you submit - if you create something then you can just submit it. If you want to submit items made by someone else, you would need to contact the owner of that item and ask for permission to sale that item (make a contract to obtain the rights for sale). If you're the creator of an item, then there's no problem, you don't need to do anything at all.
As long as your creations are not based on copyrighted property - for example you can't make a batman character model and sell it, because the batman is copyrighted.

Oh and thanks for the warm words on support smile
11-13-2013 09:51 AM
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candam Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #54
RE: Esenthel Store open to everyone
I find the terms are really right and good just look at the bright side
nothing is 100% perfect so Greg must guarantee that nobody is going to sue him if something unlikely to happen and that will not be but it's just a disclaimer smile
don't you forget Greg sell his valuable engine in the store too

he is doing his best

smile
Thanks for your support
11-13-2013 01:03 PM
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aceio76 Offline
Source Licensee

Post: #55
RE: Esenthel Store open to everyone
Very cool, Esenthel, I see that you have turned up your business-savvyness a few notches smile

I do have some comments regarding these combinations of terms below:

Quote:3. You will not encourage to purchase items from your own website instead of Esenthel Store
Quote:12. You give permission to Esenthel Store owners to use the items for promotional demos/images/videos of the Esenthel Engine, and commercial games, without any fees or royalties
Quote:13. These terms may change from time to time, failure to accept the new changes will result in your items being no longer available for sale

Specifically for item 12), would it be unreasonable to ask that you clarify that you will "only" use the items for promotional efforts, and not resale the items you have access to in the store in any way? This is more towards tools/addons sold as items in the store, where nothing is keeping you from taking that Intellectual Property "idea" and recreating it with your own code and then including it into the engine. I'm all for progressing and making the engine better, but if you copy in any way an idea presented/shown by any of the items sold in the store that you are already getting 30% of profit from, it isn't fair to the seller. I think you should at least mention that if there is an idea taken from any of the tools/addons sold as items in the store, that you will contact/notify the seller and negotiate use of the Intellectual Property (IP). This should apply even to those sellers who either decided to stop selling in to store or you banned them for some reason but already has items sold in the store. IP Rights laws can go against you (esenthel) very easily if you don't clarify your intent here and then later on you end up adding a feature in the engine that seemingly copied an idea from one of the items in your store.

I have access to a IP rights attorney (she is a friend of the family) and can easily ask for specific advice, but I think any savvy person here who intends to sell tools/addons in your store might catch this loophole and potentially not sell at all.

Another small matter regarding item 13), if you do change the terms, the seller should have rights to decline it (as you already mentioned) but in many ways you should honor what they already agreed to prior to your changes. Terms are point-in-time specific (at least for us here in the US). If you change the terms, it's like another term agreement altogether, and sellers can choose to agree to it or not. You should, in my opinion, also offer contingency if the seller decides to not agree with the new terms, and what will happen to existing items in the store (you already addressed this I believe) and also those who have already bought the items and how the new terms might change what the buyers already have access to.

Terms and Conditions like what you have here is very tricky, and if an actual attorney was involved in decisions whether to use the EE store or not, I'm 95% positive the attorney will say "don't use it", until of course you tighten up the gross loose ends, like the ones I brought up grin
(This post was last modified: 11-13-2013 03:29 PM by aceio76.)
11-13-2013 03:18 PM
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Dwight Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #56
RE: Esenthel Store open to everyone
Don't forget that the point-in-time is overruled here by specifically stating that Terms and Conditions might change from time to time (it would be better to rephrase this sentence along the lines of "with or without any written or digital, not limited to email, notifications beforehand").

It's extremely difficult to establish that if Esenthel wishes to implement the feature Tottel is selling into the engine, the idea originated from there. Some things with regards to this cannot be legally protected to be copied.

For the sake of simplicity, it's good; and we all know that we are reasonable women and men around here. And don't forget: Esenthel can ban or restrict your use of the engine without any prior warning as well, and ungrounded, as soon as something happens smile

We are all reasonable here, so this simplicity actually has some advantages to it.

[If Esenthel Engine is registered in the States, aceio is right]
11-13-2013 07:19 PM
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aceio76 Offline
Source Licensee

Post: #57
RE: Esenthel Store open to everyone
Dwight, no idea how well-versed you are with international laws regarding IP rights, but you seem like you have far more first-hand knowledge of this than I, so I will defer to you. But behind all the T's and C's (terms and conditions) that Esenthel wrote, even though it's meant to protect himself well, there are clear loopholes that folks already acknowledged that could prevent esenthel from doing business with anyone in a particular country, unless he changes the T's and C's. For example, if I end up having an issue down the line and I've made a fair amount of money from the ee store prior to the issue arising, I can raise my concerns and if validated, esenthel could be prevented to make any sale coming from the US. Of course there are many hurdles to this, including the T's and C's that PayPal upholds (since they also do multi-national business), but if there's a good source of money from it, the hurdles will be overcomed.

As far as the T's and C's not sticking to a point-in-time, for us here, that's very much arguable especially if the changes will impact the seller's ability to make a profit (or anything defensibly negative) with the new conditions and if the seller decides to take legal action. One would think that things are common sense, but lawyers can twist things and magnify the negative impact that the changes in T's and C's applied to the seller.

Point is, be as fair as possible with the T's and C's now, since while protecting one's self is the intent, you also don't want to bait those that have to follow the T's and C's you imposed where they will attack its intent and legitimacy. No T's and C's are perfect, so when you come up with one, don't make it so that folks will want to go after a kink in its armor because you have made it unfair to follow (the ever-changing T's and C's is a good example of this). If the T's and C's have to change, include a clause that says that the previously agreed to T's and C's are still in full effect if the changes are not accepted. Again, just to be fair. After all, legal action is not cheap, so anyone going into the legal action must have good reason and "something to gain" by doing it.
11-13-2013 08:37 PM
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Dwight Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #58
RE: Esenthel Store open to everyone
And taxes smile

Retrieving money from services requires a special paypal account as well. I am unsure if people here have this account.

But I will contribute in due time to the store anyways to see how it goes! Maybe something UI related.
11-13-2013 09:23 PM
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Esenthel Offline
Administrator

Post: #59
RE: Esenthel Store open to everyone
Hi Everyone!
Thanks for the comments smile

I've clarified following points:
Quote:12. You give permission to Esenthel Store owners to use the items (for making promotional images/videos/demos of the Esenthel Engine, including commercial games) as if they would've bought the item themselves according to the item's Terms of Use
I can make promotional demos/videos/games including your content. No, this doesn't mean that I can resell your own items, it is as if I'm your customer and need to respect your License/Terms of Use of the Item, except that I can use it for free.
Btw. You can't make an Intellectual Property out of event system, anyone can make it, Tottel has made one, Scarlet Thread has made one, I can make one, and you can make one. What matters here is that me and any other customer purchasing your source code, cannot violate the Esenthel Store terms of use, including:
• Any purchased items and its license key may not be shared/distributed/sold, in full or in part, publicly or to any third party
So to make this simple, if you're submitting a source code package to Esenthel Store, it doesn't mean that I can no longer develop a similar feature into the engine, it only means that if one day I'd like to develop something similar, I will not use your source code.

I've clarified this point as well:
Quote:13. These terms may change from time to time, failure to accept the new changes will result in your items being no longer available for sale to new customers (old customers can still access their purchased items according to the old terms)
If I make some adjustments, they will be small and reasonable. If I there would be any bigger changes (most probably there won't be) then people have the option to opt-out and no longer sell their items.

And I've added this point:
Quote:15. Items are by default sold to Users with the Terms specified below, if you wish however to specify your own Terms of Use for the items that you submit, you need to include them in the Item Description visible on the Item Page in Esenthel Store, so the users can read the Terms before they make the purchase.
For example do not specify custom Terms of Use that are only available inside the Item Download File that users see only after they make the purchase.

Default Terms of Use for other people buying your own items:
Quote:• All purchased items are non-refundable
• Any purchased items and its license key may not be shared/distributed/sold, in full or in part, publicly or to any third party
• Items can be distributed as part of an application provided that they're encrypted and not normally accessible (for example you can buy a "3D model" item, and include it in your "game" application, however you need to keep the item file encrypted so only your game can access it, but other people can't)
• If Esenthel Store or its items become unavailable, temporarily or permanently, you're not entitled to any refund of any kind (please keep a backup of the files)
• You can use the items worldwide without any additional fees or royalties
• You can use the items for making as many products (games/videos/images/..) as you wish

These terms are available to Users once they attempt to login on Esenthel Store website, I'll try to make them visible in the Esenthel Store inside the Editor.

And also:
checkout the 3d asset submitted by Lluc - http://www.esenthel.com/?id=store&item=56 smile
11-13-2013 09:43 PM
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Scarlet Thread Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #60
RE: Esenthel Store open to everyone
Hi Esenthel,

This is very exciting. Thanks for adding this to the engine it looks really good addition. Love how I can access the store from in the editor.

The Terms & Conditions don't concern me too much. They seem fair and appropriate.

I look forward to adding some of my code to the store. I've got code coming out of my ears and it will be good to finish something in the interim without having to have to complete a full game. This will keep me motivated to keep coding on this long arduous journey of creating games.
11-14-2013 03:54 AM
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