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Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
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Esenthel Offline
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Post: #1
Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
First there was 1.0, then together with 2.0 I've made an announcement that more or less once a year there will be a new engine version.

Esenthel 3.0 should've been released a few months ago, but I was too busy with general development to think about packaging it as a new standalone version.

So the time for a new version has come now, normally I would've call it Esenthel 3.0, and in the next year there would be 4.0, etc. However, because of recent announcement from other game engines, that they're moving into subscription based system, I've decided to do the same, and because of that, the new release won't be called EE 3.0, 4.0. There will be just Esenthel Engine, continuously updated all the time, but as a subscription.

Why am I moving to subscription system? If a potential customer sees that he can get another engine for initial payment of ~10-20$, then most likely he will not choose a bigger up-front fee of Esenthel's current 199$. That's why I'm introducing multiple options:
-monthly subscription (binary only)
-yearly subscription (binary only) with 20% savings
-yearly subscription (binary+source only) with source access
(unfortunately I'm not introducing monthly binary+source option, because for me it's too risky at the moment to make the source to be available at so low cost).

Introducing subscription system doesn't change the situation much from the customer side, because normally I'd be releasing new engine version (3.0, 4.0, etc.) and charging fee for upgrade from an earlier version, with the subscription it works the same but it's automated, and with more options.

The new licensing system is available here:
http://www.esenthel.com/?id=store&cat=0

When subscribing to the source license, in order to access the source code, you need to:
1. Buy Source License.
2. Click on 'Set GitHub account for this license' next to your license key in the 'Download' area.
3. Enter your GitHub account name.
4. Use this account to access the source code on Esenthel GitHub page https://github.com/Esenthel/EsenthelEngine

At the moment, at the step #3 you don't get instant access, because I need to manually give you permission on the GitHub website to view the source code, this should take within 24 hours. But I'll try to make this process automated ASAP so you can get access instantly.

Also, because I'm releasing a brand new engine version, there won't be any more updates to 2.0.
However if you have a 2.0 license that was purchased less than a year ago (after 6th April 2013), then you can send me PM including your license key, and I can change your 2.0 license to the newer "engine binary license yearly subscription". It will have the same purchase date, which means that it will expire 1 year after your original purchase. (So if you've bought 2.0 license 9 months ago and want to upgrade it now, then you get 3 months of the new license, if you've bought 3 months ago, then you get 9 months of the new license).
If you don't wish to upgrade you can stick with 2.0 license.
Upgrading process may take a few days depending on the number of PM's that I get, thank you for your patience.

If you want to go with the new source license (highly recommended grin ), then you need to make a brand new purchase for the source license (there are no upgrades to the source license from an older license).

Also please read carefully the license details on each subscription item as they're now slightly different and reflect the subscription related info and source access info.

About releasing engine's source code:
I was reluctant to this initially, obviously due to security reasons, but now that other engines do this, I have no other choice.
However, I'm completely excited, because I'm sure that thanks to release of the source code, much more people will be able to collaborate on it together (github is supposedly good at this), and make the engine grow faster.
04-06-2014 01:22 AM
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candam Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #2
RE: Esenthel going Open Source
I'm happy to reply first on this topic. By the way I knew that you'd make that move and I'm totally with it. Good move for Esenthel future smile

I guess this system will keep you developing the most required features because it's a subscription based system Am I right grin
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 01:51 AM by candam.)
04-06-2014 01:41 AM
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Esenthel Offline
Administrator

Post: #3
RE: Esenthel going Open Source
I'm completely excited to see what improvements other users can bring into the source code smile

The new licensing system does not however change the way I prioritise adding new features.
04-06-2014 02:28 AM
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Rubeus Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #4
RE: Esenthel going Open Source
I'm pretty happy about this, but at the same time I'm a little disappointed that I will have to pay again. It seems like yesterday that I got EE 2.0. Has it been 1.5 years already.....yes it has. Curses.
1) Would you be willing to offer a discount to EE2.0 license holders(or do a pre-sale like you did with 2.0 beta)?
2) Would you be willing to include the Esenthel games(RPG, Ineisis, etc) as part of the purchase of the 1 year + source code license?
3) I'm considering the source code, but at the same time I think it would be silly to contribute to a product/service I'm paying for. For users that are active in helping make the engine better(new features, bug fixes, comment clarifications/updates, etc), would you say it would be fair to waive the fee for the source code on renewal and only charge the $150 for the binary subscription?
04-06-2014 03:41 AM
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kevindekever Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #5
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Mhh, you need money? Contributions for new features, tax for webshop, now new "subscription system". I don't realy like this. Lot of new features built in the new 2.0 Esenthel, but lot of features still missing, still roadmapfeatures missing from EE1.0 like "physical cloth", "destructible objects creation", "integrated shader editor" you promised to 2.0 and some more. After 9 month you decide a new Esenthel Version 3.0? 1.0 started in 2008? I see, now there is a good reason to change the engine.... offline mode?

You raised the price by 100$ to 2.0, now you want 149$/year sorry ... and think about warez, you do not want your source become free to all? And 500$ for group buy is nothing.

But back to topic, i am happy with this esenthel 2.0 there are some features missing in, but i do not think subscription is a good way to get new customers. You offer a free version for testing and this is ok. If anybody like it, he will pay the 200$ or 50$Upgrade fee or somthing like that. There is no need for a subscrition. Instead of raising the price to 300$ for 3.0, you should think about left to 200$ and just having upgrade cost. So for newcomers is easier to buy and your comunity decide if it is worth to pay for the upgrade. This is my opinion

Have a look to Game ABC in 2000 and in 2010 compared to dlc,addons,subscription.
DLC ---> Features, Addons--->Version, MMO-->Subscription
Lot of games are "free to play" now
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 07:37 AM by kevindekever.)
04-06-2014 06:42 AM
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Esenthel Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
(04-06-2014 06:42 AM)kevindekever Wrote:  Mhh, you need money? Contributions for new features, tax for webshop, now new "subscription system". I don't realy like this. Lot of new features built in the new 2.0 Esenthel, but lot of features still missing, still roadmapfeatures missing from EE1.0 like "physical cloth", "destructible objects creation", "integrated shader editor" you promised to 2.0 and some more. After 9 month you decide a new Esenthel Version 3.0? 1.0 started in 2008? I see, now there is a good reason to change the engine....
Dear Kevin,
-Contributions are and always were completely optional, they're used to direct the development, and support the engine's creator (me).
-All of the most popular Online Stores have the same commission rate (Apple Store, Google Play, Windows Store, other very popular game engine store)
-All of the most popular Engines have very similar pricing, and actually most of them are more expensive than Esenthel. (I've prepared a simple comparison over here http://www.esenthel.com/?id=compare )
-New engine version (current) is not released 9 months after previous one (2.0), but 18 months, that's 6 months later than it should be. (when releasing 2.0 I was announcing that there will be new versions released each year).
-Yes I do need money. Everyone needs it. I could never create an engine if I didn't have any money. Yes unfortunately, I do need to eat, pay my bills and rent.
I think you're very quick to change your mind about engines, but I respect your decision, and wish you good luck.
04-06-2014 06:55 AM
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kevindekever Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #7
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
(04-06-2014 06:55 AM)Esenthel Wrote:  Dear Kevin,
-Contributions are and always were completely optional, they're used to direct the development, and support the engine's creator (me).
-All of the most popular Online Stores have the same commission rate (Apple Store, Google Play, Windows Store, other very popular game engine store)
-All of the most popular Engines have very similar pricing, and actually most of them are more expensive than Esenthel. (I've prepared a simple comparison over here http://www.esenthel.com/?id=compare )
-New engine version (current) is not released 9 months after previous one (2.0), but 18 months, that's 6 months later than it should be. (when releasing 2.0 I was announcing that there will be new versions released each year).
-Yes I do need money. Everyone needs it. I could never create an engine if I didn't have any money. Yes unfortunately, I do need to eat, pay my bills and rent.
I think you're very quick to change your mind about engines, but I respect your decision, and wish you good luck.

All do it, then we have to do it too? I did not change my mind about engines. But i am your customer, i have to pay, so i pay your bills grin and subscrition is not the way to get new people and new contributions
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 09:15 AM by kevindekever.)
04-06-2014 07:59 AM
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Pixel Perfect Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #8
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Whilst I'm happy with the move to a subscription based system unless I was looking for the source code option I'm not really seeing anything in this new release that makes me sit up and say ... "Wow! I really want this new version".

Normally a new engine release would contain at least one major addition (like Hardware Instancing or Editor support for Breakable Objects for example) to pull people in. Whilst the list of additions are welcome they appear to be mainly minor improvements/updates more akin to between release updates rather than big new functionality which kind of leaves me feeling a bit disappointed tbh!
04-06-2014 09:29 AM
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Nito Vermilion Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #9
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
That step was not really something new. I mean otherwise it wouldn't be that smart. What I am missing is something to advertise. Something like - subscribe now and get a completely new engine with all good features from 2.0 plus new GUI Options (customize the UI even more like that thread linked in the version history) or Destructible Objects, w.e.

I mean $500/year for the source code is amazing. Even more that you could now play around with the engine like you wanted to.
I mean when I switched from 1.0 to 2.0 it had that "Wow!"-effect. That is missing somehow.
I will stay at 2.0 for the time being since I cannot develop anything soon (too busy with other things like designing skill icons, building up databases and think of sql to ee connection and modelling my freaking character.... so annoying xD) so maybe in the future there will be more/other features which drives me into the newer version.

Anyway I'm looking forward to see new projects and users as well as the engine and it's community grow larger and larger
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 10:24 AM by Nito Vermilion.)
04-06-2014 09:54 AM
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DoerrSt Offline
Member

Post: #10
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Hi,

it could be that I miss that in your post.

Is there a way to upgrade my relatively new license to a source license at reduced price? Let's say another $ 150?

Also, if I upgrade just to version 3 (without source) - do I loose my Esenthel 2 License? Or can I continue to use Esenthel 2 also if I cancel my Esenthel 3 subscription later?

Thanks for answering this.

EDIT: Please remind that I now can choose to switch to a license which is worthless in year or - after around 2 months of usage I don't get any updates for the engine anymore. Enabling the usage but disabling updates after the subscription expired would be a solution (in my opinion).
At the moment, to be honest, I don't see what benefit I have from switching to 3.0 beside of continued updates...
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 01:23 PM by DoerrSt.)
04-06-2014 01:13 PM
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MrPi Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #11
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
I don't think any of this is amazing. The entire incentive to buy Esenthel 2.0 seat licenses was that they are seat licenses and not "per title" licenses. So you would be able to use the engine for a long time. Now you're practically forcing everyone to switch over to the new model if they want updates.

This is treating your existing customer base very poorly, because the transition offer is a joke. As existing customers we're getting a 1 year binary license, but starting at the date we purchased it. This means that those who purchased before are not worth anything to you. Those were the ones who supported you and your business FIRST. And now all they get is a wet handshake, not even a thank you.
The least thing you should do is give all your existing licensees a free yearly binary license starting now. And by that I mean ALL existing licenses, including EE1 company licenses.
And if you want to push the source license you should offer your valued existing customers an extra special upgrade deal, taking what they already spent into account. Example: getting it for 199 USD for the first year. You would make much more money this way. And your customers feel special.

Esenthel 2.0 was never really complete and we bought it anyway. It still has bugs, a quirky editor with many missing features. What about that? Will I be sitting on my bugs now? I (and others) made contributions to the engine in good faith. Not worth anything? (Yeah sure, they were fully optional)

If you continue treating those who supported you in the past like that, soon there won't be any customers left who will spread the good word for Esenthel.
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 01:17 PM by MrPi.)
04-06-2014 01:14 PM
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Harry Offline
Member

Post: #12
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Hi,

My adventure with Esenthel Engine began in 2008. I still remember old website, Esenthel announcement about engine releasing and my questions to him how to start (thanks for patience smile). I can say that it also began my adventure with 3D graphics and programming (I learned C++ with EEsmile). And I think it is good time to tell how engine development looks from my point of view.

Because I haven't got much time I'm not playing with EE much. Few days ago I've started testing EE 2.0 (and now I'm reading about 3.0 and 4.0 grin). It inded allows making games faster. I have fount even to Esenthel Script. It avoid some burdensome features such as need of making headers or . and -> operators. This is good.

I wanted make a game on my project at the university. I tell my teachers about EE and what we can do with it. And when I want show progress to my teacher and I was dissapointed. I must buy licence to publish game and get all game data runnable on other computers. Maybe there is a possibility write it in Visual but I decided to go back to EE 1.0.

Now as I see EE is set to buying licence to do almost anything. In Free version you can only play with Editor, make something simple and that's all. You can't show it another people. Now if I want move my Forest Valley to EE 2.0 I can't because I use more resources than limit (64). I'm sad that you forget about normal users who used engine "free for non-commercial" use and treat it like a hobby which doesn't need a license. I feel that now important is Licensed Developers and nobody more. Even here, in this thread only them say something.

And a little about Editor itself. I like it. It is more like other engines editors. But it is still less intuitive thant other editors. I feel that it is also less flexible when you want adjust your window layout. I miss undo options in some features which are for me important thing in current apps. I saw that there are missing also some functionalisties from EE 1.0 like destructibles objects. Personally I think that this should be priority to make 2.0 Editor to have the same functionalities as Editor 1.0 and then something more. Also sometimes shortcuts are less intuitive. Most tools which I used have similar shortcuts for the same operations. Here I have to learn it from scratch.

I understand that you need money and I have nothing to this that you want earn them on engine because it is your child and you can do anything you want. You've made a really good work and you have huge knowledge and skills. I like how the engine grows and the community grows and I want to say you good luck. Maybe I'm old-school engine user and I got used to EE 1.0. I hope that you won't be angry on me smile That's all what I want to tell smile
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 03:18 PM by Harry.)
04-06-2014 01:34 PM
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Sherincall Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #13
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
(04-06-2014 06:55 AM)Esenthel Wrote:  -All of the most popular Engines have very similar pricing, and actually most of them are more expensive than Esenthel. (I've prepared a simple comparison over here http://www.esenthel.com/?id=compare )
Everyone expects these comparisons to be misleading (including only the features where you are better than the competition, etc), but now you're just simply lying:
- Cry's pricing is shaded red, and it is cheaper than EE.
- Unreal does have support for Linux/SteamOS.
- Both Cry and Unreal are frequently updated
- Unreal does have an integrated store.


As for the new pricing model, well.. I think the old one was one of the main EE advantages over the others. Now, if you're asking for a subscription, there's nothing getting the users to buy EE instead of Unreal for example. Personally, I won't be getting the EE3 subscription.
04-06-2014 01:47 PM
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DoerrSt Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
- Unreal does have support for Linux/SteamOS.
-> It's "just" announced for an later update this month, but currently it does not have support for SteamOS as far as I know.
04-06-2014 01:52 PM
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Sherincall Offline
Legacy License Owner

Post: #15
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
I believe it is already on github, you just need to compile it yourself as experimental for now. With the update it will become available by default.
04-06-2014 01:54 PM
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