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Code Editor : Good and Bad
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iamcreasy Offline
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Post: #1
Code Editor : Good and Bad
@Esenthel
I have just seen the video demonstration of Esenthel.

Its impressive no doubt about that, but don't you think it is going to break the tradition of traditional C++ programming. Like initializing values inside the class, always allowing using dot operator etc.

Say a amateur c++ programmer come to esenthel engine for some game development experience. Isn't this code editor is going to mess with his/her fundamental?
03-27-2011 08:41 PM
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Esenthel Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Code Editor : Good and Bad
C# works like that and code editor brings best from c++ and c#
03-27-2011 09:15 PM
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iamcreasy Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Code Editor : Good and Bad
But, isn't the EE is based on C++ and shouldn't it focus on c++ traditions?

Many people come to EE, knowing it as a C++ Game engine.

Anyway, that was just my point of view.
03-27-2011 09:20 PM
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llynx Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Code Editor : Good and Bad
(03-27-2011 09:20 PM)iamcreasy Wrote:  But, isn't the EE is based on C++ and shouldn't it focus on c++ traditions?
Many people come to EE, knowing it as a C++ Game engine.
Anyway, that was just my point of view.

Well you can still use traditional C++ and most people do, and thus will still be a C++ game engine. The code editor looks like it does a good job for people transitioning from other languages as it simplifies the nuances of C++, which in turn increases coding efficiency.

My only concern is that if someone comes to EE, learns to code in a Code Editor fashion, then they will have a relatively tricky time switching to regular C++ for application outside of EE (but not too difficlt). So yes I see what you're saying iamcreasy.
(This post was last modified: 03-27-2011 10:00 PM by llynx.)
03-27-2011 09:57 PM
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iamcreasy Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Code Editor : Good and Bad
About transitioning, rather then going for a hybrid approach, isn't is better to adapt with the new environment/tradition? That's how someone learn a new thing.

And the nuances is what exactly makes c++ stand out of the crowd.

Instead of the Code Editor fashion, I would rather prefer to adapt with the Code Editor's features. But what CE is providing is 'features in a new fashion', but in a way, that makes me feel uneasy.

One this that I dislike is the use of dot notation instead of arrow (->).This feature looks disastrous to me.
(This post was last modified: 03-27-2011 10:11 PM by iamcreasy.)
03-27-2011 10:05 PM
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Tottel Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Code Editor : Good and Bad
I was going to bring up the same, iamcreasy.

The code editor seems practical to use.. And that's a problem for me since I'm still learning proper C++.
Eventhough this seems fun to use, and will probably be more efficient for me; It would be a shame to stop practicing with pointers, 'correct' variable declarations,.. and be very confusing when I have to do it again afterwards.
03-27-2011 10:53 PM
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Esenthel Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Code Editor : Good and Bad
You can use -> operator too
03-28-2011 05:53 AM
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Salival Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Code Editor : Good and Bad
Code editor is completely unnecessary development of this engine. If people are interested in creating games then they should learn to code properly else use Game Maker.

And yes, I understand what you mean iamcreasy.
(This post was last modified: 03-28-2011 07:15 AM by Salival.)
03-28-2011 07:14 AM
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llynx Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Code Editor : Good and Bad
(03-28-2011 05:53 AM)Esenthel Wrote:  You can use -> operator too

Ah, well thats fine then smile Adds flexibility!
(03-28-2011 07:14 AM)Salival Wrote:  Code editor is completely unnecessary development of this engine. If people are interested in creating games then they should learn to code properly else use Game Maker.

And yes, I understand what you mean iamcreasy.

I'm not so sure. I'm going to be running a workshop on EE for beginner/intermediate level python/java programmers from my university sometime this semester and I'll have to see how well the code editor helps the transition. Its up for debate but I think learning c++ will be easier for them. (so far the feedback I've received about their opinions of c++ was that it's a "hard" language to learn, CE could change that)
(This post was last modified: 03-28-2011 07:25 AM by llynx.)
03-28-2011 07:19 AM
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Esenthel Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Code Editor : Good and Bad
Yes, c++ is not easy for everyone, the purpose of Code Editor was it to make programming easier, and bring it to more people.

@Salival: good business is not about telling people what to do, but it's about providing solutions for them, so they don't need to do it by themself.
If you're good at using c++ then it's great, but not everyone can do it!
03-28-2011 07:45 AM
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Salival Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Code Editor : Good and Bad
(03-28-2011 07:45 AM)Esenthel Wrote:  @Salival: good business is not about telling people what to do, but it's about providing solutions for them, so they don't need to do it by themself.
If you're good at using c++ then it's great, but not everyone can do it!

I understand what you mean about providing solutions, I'm just realistic no offense at all. Go the easy path usually do not go well if you know what I mean. I did not say I was good at c++, I'm talking in general of creating games & applications.

I think you should have knowledge of the things you create. For example, not just write CreateFPSGame() just because it's easy to create a FPS Game. Then you know nothing at all to what is happening behind.
(This post was last modified: 03-28-2011 08:20 AM by Salival.)
03-28-2011 08:19 AM
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rndbit Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Code Editor : Good and Bad
(03-28-2011 07:45 AM)Esenthel Wrote:  If you're good at using c++ then it's great, but not everyone can do it!

truth to be told - if one finds hard time coding in c++ - he has no business in game development. You better than anyone else should know how complicated game development is. sure, code editor will attract more people who do not know how to code in c++. if so - this forum may turn into nest of noobs asking how to rotate camera each other day. nearly all such noobies i saw were 14 year old kids with money for lunch from mommy. i see no commercial advantage in such users whatsoever.

Regarding nature of code editor: few weeks ago when checking out progress on D programming language i read a thought on what makes programming language successful. I cant find it now, but it said that ease of use and syntax is not everything. One very important factor is compatibility with other existing languages and availability of toolset. Now i imagine for a novice user bringing together c++/c, python or c# together in code editor would be impossible. Many needed libraries exist in form of c++/c, and python/c# can be great scripting languages. I assume you plan support for importing functions from c++/c libs and dlls, okay, but rest of languages are left out. And toolset - as said countless times - i refuse to believe that code editor would be ever able to replace visual studio. If i wanted to code in c# and use esenthel - i would make c# bindings myself.

And about D: it looks to me like professional version of code editor. As much as i would like that language to succeed - so far it does not. It has great compatibility with c++/c code, but there are few large limiting factor - lack of good IDEs and need of additional work to make c++/c libs work with D application. It is sad, because D is exactly what you try to do, it brings native code and performance of c++ with ease of use of c#.
03-28-2011 09:15 AM
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llynx Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Code Editor : Good and Bad
(03-28-2011 09:15 AM)rndbit Wrote:  
(03-28-2011 07:45 AM)Esenthel Wrote:  If you're good at using c++ then it's great, but not everyone can do it!
truth to be told - if one finds hard time coding in c++ - he has no business in game development.
I do not believe that is the right way to look at it, nor most aspects of life.

As Esenthel said "the purpose of Code Editor was it to make programming easier, and bring it to more people." And thats a very good idea.

Perhaps there will be more newbies but there will always be a few that rise above that and make something great!

I know you have a strong opinion about CE but I hope you try to understand the other side of the argument.
03-28-2011 09:53 AM
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rndbit Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Code Editor : Good and Bad
for a few ones who rise above - it is too much effort. and then again - if one is to become a good coder he would not need a code editor anyway. i probably will never understand vision behind it, maybe im just angry old dude, who has not much left until switching to linux haha
03-28-2011 10:06 AM
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iamcreasy Offline
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Post: #15
RE: Code Editor : Good and Bad
Ok rather then arguing who should use it, and how people will be benefited from is, and how it is going to impact the noob programmers...isn't it easier to automatize the whole process.

Say, when you import another object, the #include<className.h> automatically appears. When you write a line without scope resolution operator, after pressing enter the modification will be made automatically. Same about -> operator.

And the file name, rather then being .ES, if it was Cpp then it could have been easier for everybody to switch their IDE. And the the codes/CE were following C++ standard so, it wont be a problem.

The fact is that CE is not here to replace VS. Many of us love VS' Debugger way waaay to much.CE is just a tool to get you off the ground fast. But when you get of the ground in a wrong way, then surely you will fall in the long run. And on that time people are going to blame CE. They will say "CE has taught me to initialize variable name inside the class." Those people will complain who was happy at first after getting this CE. They wont give a shit about the fact that, this CE was made for them.

So, I think Esenthel should think about it. Unless he is sure it is going to be so popular that using its own style and stranded is going to set a new scale for using EE. Then name it "EE Script", and make it more and more optimized and have more tricks to make and do things faster in a easy way. Just think about what Unreal Script has done for so long. On that time people will have 2 choices to pick from, 1. EE Script, 2. Standerd Cpp

...and another converter to convert EE Script to Cpp code.(if necessary)
03-28-2011 11:14 AM
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