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Divergence: Esenthel-Powered MMO on IndieGoGo
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aceio76 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Divergence: Esenthel-Powered MMO on IndieGoGo
(04-02-2013 10:54 AM)shadow Wrote:  You're missing Esenthel Logo on your website

OMG!! Relax!! He isn't even making money with the game project yet. Why is it other people's business to point this out? He knows what he's doing, just wish him well.
04-02-2013 03:59 PM
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Esenthel Offline
Administrator

Post: #32
RE: Divergence: Esenthel-Powered MMO on IndieGoGo
(04-02-2013 03:59 PM)aceio76 Wrote:  OMG!! Relax!! He isn't even making money with the game project yet. Why is it other people's business to point this out? He knows what he's doing, just wish him well.
Sorry Aceio but you're terribly wrong.
First of all it doesn't matter if someone is making money or not.
Including Esenthel logo on the website homepage is a license requirement, not including it is violation of the license terms, and violation of license terms could be a reason for Esenthel Store/Community account removal (I suggest that you read Esenthel License terms carefully http://www.esenthel.com/?id=store )
User shadow was simply reminding of it, and he's right about that.
Please do not tell someone to relax and mind his own business if he's reminding of an important license term (I ask that you refrain from doing that in the future).
I have no reason to remove someone's account for accidental forgetting about something. But license terms must be followed.
04-02-2013 05:34 PM
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scotty1121 Offline
Member

Post: #33
RE: Divergence: Esenthel-Powered MMO on IndieGoGo
(04-02-2013 05:34 PM)Esenthel Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 03:59 PM)aceio76 Wrote:  OMG!! Relax!! He isn't even making money with the game project yet. Why is it other people's business to point this out? He knows what he's doing, just wish him well.
First of all it doesn't matter if someone is making money or not.
Including Esenthel logo on the website homepage is a license requirement
Great for sticking up for yourself, as Esenthel said, licence conditions must be followed, my team has various contracts with companies and people, and we can't just "forget" to credit our composer or certain other people involved. If we did, well they could take us to court.
04-03-2013 01:29 AM
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aceio76 Offline
Silver Supporter

Post: #34
RE: Divergence: Esenthel-Powered MMO on IndieGoGo
I seem to have stirred up the pot with esenthel, and that wasn't my intention. I was merely annoyed that someone else would point out to another person/team in a public manner. I found that rude. If @shadow was concerned, he should've PM'd ethanc rather than airing it out in public. It simply isn't his place or his role to do so. I never disputed that it's a "license obligation" to put a logo on the game's website, but that wasn't what I was defending against.

I just read some of the other thread concerning ethanc and esenthel, and I now understand why there was such a reaction here. It seems to really be more between ethanc and esenthel. I don't see why others really need to insert themselves here (thanks scott for butting in smile ).
(This post was last modified: 04-03-2013 02:54 AM by aceio76.)
04-03-2013 02:33 AM
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gwald Offline
Member

Post: #35
RE: Divergence: Esenthel-Powered MMO on IndieGoGo
(04-02-2013 10:54 AM)shadow Wrote:  You're missing Esenthel Logo on your website

Esenthel Engine License:
Quote:Requirements:
Esenthel Engine logo must be displayed during your application startup, and must be included on your application's website homepage linking to http://www.esenthel.com after clicking on it

So without an app, we (licensees) need to put a link to esenthel.com on our 'home page' now??? geez

Humm.. I'm is here:
http://www.esenthel.com/community/showth...5#pid37095

Do I need to make a link to esenthel.com?

What about others working on projects, but with no app (launched or otherwise) ?
http://nanodev.tumblr.com/ comes to mind?


My understanding from the license is this: no app, no link??

My Blog
http://www.esenthel.com/community/showthread.php?tid=6043

I hang out at Esenthel IRC Channel
http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#Esenthel
04-03-2013 03:39 AM
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fatcoder Offline
Member

Post: #36
RE: Divergence: Esenthel-Powered MMO on IndieGoGo
Quote:during your application startup, and must be included on your application's website homepage

Please read the terms carefully.

Quote:So without an app, we (licensees) need to put a link to esenthel.com on our 'home page' now??? geez

Humm.. I'm is here:
http://www.esenthel.com/community/showth...5#pid37095

Do I need to make a link to esenthel.com?

No and no.

Quote:What about others working on projects, but with no app (launched or otherwise) ?
http://nanodev.tumblr.com/ comes to mind?

Not an application website, so again, no.
04-03-2013 04:06 AM
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JonathonA Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Divergence: Esenthel-Powered MMO on IndieGoGo
Sorry about that, we don't host this website because it's really adobe flash heavy and there are bandwidth concerns, but we can easily ask our web developer to adhere an Esenthel logo. The wording of the license agreement states, "...and must be included on your application's website homepage..." so naturally we want to get that logo on our site as soon as possible once we have an application and not just a prototype.

Right now, we're still hung up on this issue of managing a world created in the editor in a dynamic world management system (same as Ineisis). We're working hard to resolve this but we are struggling, and I'm sure with the knowledge and expertise available through the Esenthel developers and of course, Greg himself, we could get past this a little quicker.

Researched what little there is on the forums (some examples below) and understand much of the basics of dynamic world management using Esenthel Engine and have been testing some solutions out using the Ineisis project but no success so far.

Dynamic world related notes:
The following post from early last year:
Esenthel Wrote:You could however add to it manual code that parses premade world editor world, and initializes dynamic world according to the data in the world folder
and information from the following threads: Ineisis Online for Esenthel 2.0
Ineisis World Areas Streaming
World saving
Editing the world once again
Code based world management

We've got world and its area data in Net::Worlds cache by dropping our world folder into the Storage\World folder that is created by the Ineisis server and even forced a re-save of all area data by changing the UpdateWorldFormat bool flag but the client still does not render the world. I can only assume this is because the server is not transferring the area data over the network correctly (if it is even loaded correctly on the server to begin with).

I'm sure everyone involved, both the Divergence team and the engine itself would love to see the application functional and this project out there making waves. Looking forward to any input you can give on the matter.
04-04-2013 10:23 PM
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Esenthel Offline
Administrator

Post: #38
RE: Divergence: Esenthel-Powered MMO on IndieGoGo
Quote:Sorry about that, we don't host this website because it's really adobe flash heavy and there are bandwidth concerns, but we can easily ask our web developer to adhere an Esenthel logo. The wording of the license agreement states, "...and must be included on your application's website homepage..." so naturally we want to get that logo on our site as soon as possible once we have an application and not just a prototype
Hello, sorry but the license does not say "if your app is work in progress then you don't need to include Esenthel logo"
You're currently violating license terms, please include Esenthel logo as soon as possible, thank you
04-05-2013 10:36 AM
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Fex Offline
Bronze Supporter

Post: #39
RE: Divergence: Esenthel-Powered MMO on IndieGoGo
(04-04-2013 10:23 PM)JonathonA Wrote:  Sorry about that, we don't host this website because it's really adobe flash heavy and there are bandwidth concerns, but we can easily ask our web developer to adhere an Esenthel logo. The wording of the license agreement states, "...and must be included on your application's website homepage..." so naturally we want to get that logo on our site as soon as possible once we have an application and not just a prototype.

Right now, we're still hung up on this issue of managing a world created in the editor in a dynamic world management system (same as Ineisis). We're working hard to resolve this but we are struggling, and I'm sure with the knowledge and expertise available through the Esenthel developers and of course, Greg himself, we could get past this a little quicker.

Researched what little there is on the forums (some examples below) and understand much of the basics of dynamic world management using Esenthel Engine and have been testing some solutions out using the Ineisis project but no success so far.

Dynamic world related notes:
The following post from early last year:
Esenthel Wrote:You could however add to it manual code that parses premade world editor world, and initializes dynamic world according to the data in the world folder
and information from the following threads: Ineisis Online for Esenthel 2.0
Ineisis World Areas Streaming
World saving
Editing the world once again
Code based world management

We've got world and its area data in Net::Worlds cache by dropping our world folder into the Storage\World folder that is created by the Ineisis server and even forced a re-save of all area data by changing the UpdateWorldFormat bool flag but the client still does not render the world. I can only assume this is because the server is not transferring the area data over the network correctly (if it is even loaded correctly on the server to begin with).

I'm sure everyone involved, both the Divergence team and the engine itself would love to see the application functional and this project out there making waves. Looking forward to any input you can give on the matter.

You need to abandon the world editor, the world editor is not geared towards dynamic worlds. You should use the Ineisis code as a base and make your client into a fully workable world editor, with only some features available to devs/GMs etc. It's trivial to change the Ineisis code to have things like terrain painting of larger areas and brushes for heightmap changes, object painting etc...

For example use:
http://hme.sourceforge.net/

Then in SetWorldAreas() on server add:
Code:
Image im; im.Import("world/heightmap.bmp", IMAGE_I8);

Pass "im" to area.heightmap.create(...)

and add this to area.heightmap.create(...);

Code:
REPAD(y, height   )
      REPAD(x, height[y]){  height[y][x]= im.color(y+yarea*32, x+xarea*32).r; }
      heightChanged();

And boom you can import any external .bmp as your world's initial heightmap.
Then tweak the heightmap "in game" from that point on. In the g and b channels add objects to paint like trees.

Versioning of changed areas is also not hard, just save a new copy of the area with each change. This also lets you revert player made changes back to the developer standard after a certain amount of time.

Not to plug my hobbiest project, but you may want to download http://questforterritory.com/ and see how for example when you place a building the heightmap automatically aligns to the building, or how when you raise or lower the terrain near a building it auto-flattens, or when you raise or lower the level of a building the surrounding terrain also raises and lowers. If you want player owned assets and terrain editing, then you need such realtime features, it will take you less time to expand the Ineisis code to support such features than it will to try to expand the world editor code to support the same real time editing features.

I could post examples of how to do this in code, but that would violate Esenthel's copyright as its derivative of his Ineisis code which is licensed.
(This post was last modified: 04-05-2013 05:47 PM by Fex.)
04-05-2013 05:25 PM
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JonathonA Offline
Member

Post: #40
RE: Divergence: Esenthel-Powered MMO on IndieGoGo
(04-05-2013 05:25 PM)Fex Wrote:  You need to abandon the world editor, the world editor is not geared towards dynamic worlds. You should use the Ineisis code as a base and make your client into a fully workable world editor, with only some features available to devs/GMs etc. It's trivial to change the Ineisis code to have things like terrain painting of larger areas and brushes for heightmap changes, object painting etc...

Versioning of changed areas is also not hard, just save a new copy of the area with each change. This also lets you revert player made changes back to the developer standard after a certain amount of time.

Not to plug my hobbiest project, but you may want to download http://questforterritory.com/ and see how for example when you place a building the heightmap automatically aligns to the building, or how when you raise or lower the terrain near a building it auto-flattens, or when you raise or lower the level of a building the surrounding terrain also raises and lowers. If you want player owned assets and terrain editing, then you need such realtime features, it will take you less time to expand the Ineisis code to support such features than it will to try to expand the world editor code to support the same real time editing features.

I could post examples of how to do this in code, but that would violate Esenthel's copyright as its derivative of his Ineisis code which is licensed.

Thank you for that Fex, really appreciate your input smile If you have a moment, please check your PMs.
04-05-2013 05:38 PM
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EthanC Offline
Member

Post: #41
RE: Divergence: Esenthel-Powered MMO on IndieGoGo
@ Greg
I refuse to argue. The logo is on the home page per request. I would ask that you address Jon and Lars now. Jons statement was professional, courteous and it displayed several links illustrating that we have already tried everything within our power to make it work already.

@ Fex
We discussed the possibility of "abandoning" the world editor previously. Its just very much not an ideal situation considering you have to understand just how huge the world is right now. It would take me six months to remake a good portion of it "one mouse click at a time" with only the Ineisis tools at my disposal as opposed to importing it into a streamed world.

To be frank, if you say "abandon it" openly and the engine maker doesn't immediately refute it's usefulness, maybe that will be the closest thing to an answer we're going to get. In which case the wording on the Ineisis portion of the website needs to be reworded to explain, "Note: You can only create a game like this inside of a game like this".

But I still find that very hard to believe and I'm hoping Greg will choose to prove you wrong on the matter. A lot of people are investing in our game now and it's up to me to provide a game with the features we've established regardless of what engine we have to use and how we have to go about it.
04-05-2013 06:26 PM
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Esenthel Offline
Administrator

Post: #42
RE: Divergence: Esenthel-Powered MMO on IndieGoGo
Ineisis Server uses custom format for world areas (save/load methods source code is in Ineisis Package)

Game World areas data coming from the Editor (after building) is in a different format.
Please look into Game.Area and Game.Area.Data classes, and search the forum, as the topic of extracting world area data for each area was already discussed many times with source code examples.

You can do many things:
write a converter that parses game world areas and save them in ineisis server format,
or adjust server codes to operate on different kind of format.
04-05-2013 07:35 PM
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Ozmodian Offline
Member

Post: #43
RE: Divergence: Esenthel-Powered MMO on IndieGoGo
Hi EthanC and JonathanA,

I have been playing with this for a while now and I feel I am pretty close (maybe a few more weeks). My approach has been the first one Esenthel mentioned "write a converter that parses game world areas and save them in ineisis server format". Fex's comment is awesome and i actually didn't even realize it was THAT simple to use a custom heightmap (although i knew it would not be rocket science) so it is good to know. However, as Ethan stated, this is not practical when you want to really put a lot of design into your world as it looks like EthanC and team have. If I get it working, i would be happy to share it with you (assuming that does not violate any of the terms I agreed to when i bought the source code).

There is 1 very important thing to remember with this appraoch though. Currently Ineisis only supports a limited set of objects. Getting the heightmap loaded from the editor is only the first step (from what I can tell, probably the easiest as well). Where you are going to really start running into trouble is when you start looking at all the different objects you want to also load in from the world editor.

The other big thing I am working to figure out is how to identify which areas can be user modified and which cannot. In Ineisis, the user can change any area they want and that works for the design. In a full scale game, there are certainly going to be areas that you don't want updated (and probably whole instances if you have any "dungeon" or "battleground" like instances) . This is something I am really enjoying playing with but it sure is a big task.

I am sorry that you are having trouble with this but I don't think it is fair to be blaming/demanding these things on the engine. This relationship between the world editor and dynamic worlds is not an engine limitation, it is a problem that can be solved through code. That is the beauty of the engine, almost anything can be solved through C++ as long as you have the ability and desire.
04-05-2013 08:09 PM
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EthanC Offline
Member

Post: #44
RE: Divergence: Esenthel-Powered MMO on IndieGoGo
Thanks for your words "Oz".

We're resolved to fix this issue and can't really move forward with the game until it's resolved, so it's our singular purpose right now.

I/we would be enormously grateful for any help you can give with obtaining a converter. I'd even be willing to credit you in the game as an associate programmer if something you've done leads to us being able to better do our jobs in this respect.

PM me! And don't worry about the rights. We're full license holders of a huge percentage of Esenthel products including the source code for both Ineisis and the MMO source, the editor partial source, the converter tool source and anything else you would need. I give you my permission to confirm this with Greg in PMs before releasing any info to us in private.

-Ethan
04-05-2013 08:32 PM
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uNetti Offline
Member

Post: #45
RE: Divergence: Esenthel-Powered MMO on IndieGoGo
(04-05-2013 08:09 PM)Ozmodian Wrote:  If I get it working, i would be happy to share it with you (assuming that does not violate any of the terms I agreed to when i bought the source code).

Strongly doubt sharing it, would violate anything, considering Zervox has already shared map editor of the same code.

http://www.esenthel.com/community/showth...p?tid=5888
(This post was last modified: 04-05-2013 08:38 PM by uNetti.)
04-05-2013 08:37 PM
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