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Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
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scotty1121 Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
I do think that this is a good idea, but you will be cannibalise your engine if you don't add the features that are crucial for performance (light baking) and hardware instancing, the only problem I have with the engine is i can't bake 100 lights... i can't bake any at all.
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 02:11 PM by scotty1121.)
04-06-2014 02:10 PM
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candam Offline
Member

Post: #17
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
I have a suggestion guys I hope we could discuss that

smile

As an Esenthel User And I'm totally proud of that I hope that the updates continues to 2 that's great (fixes and tweaks to the engine )

but The main features that will be specific for esenthel 3 (subscription system) don't apply to Esenthel 2 users

-This way the current base users can feel that they didn't make an unsatisfied deal whilst the engine is still growing

This is a middle solution I wish to hear your opinions guys
04-06-2014 02:34 PM
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aceio76 Offline
Silver Supporter

Post: #18
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
This is more of general-speak around observations and analysis, etc:

The move of big engine developers toward low-cost subscription has multiple purposes, but mainly they are investing in the tremendous growth of the indie dev community, but ultimately each of these engine developers want to be the "only one" around for everyone to use. But the other effect of the low-cost subscription is to "kill" small-time engine developers because it will be harder to compete from a price-to-value perspective with regards to what devs are getting in the subscription they offer. These are highly established engines with complete and polished toolsets, and they grant subscribers access to all that at a low subscription cost -- how do you compete with that if you are one of the small-time engine developers? The answer that I'd like to offer is: you don't. You simply can't. You can't stand toe to toe in a price battle like that. CryEngine introduced the even lower subscription against Unreal but only opened up for Windows, however, the rumor in the blogs is that they are seeing how much interest there is in other platforms and that they are likely to open those other platforms up as well. Like I said, all these big boys want is to be the only one in the market that everyone is using. They are priced competitively and attractively to do just that. They also want to acquire users of other engines over to them.

Just my perspective for Esenthel:
I admire your tenacity to want to compete with these big boys, and in many ways, you are actually competing. But my advice is really that you shouldn't. You won't win this price battle against these highly financed behemoths. If I were your business consultant, I'd recommend that you focus on what's valuable to your current users now, and keep improving that. You have to be on the defensive where you should be focusing on what will keep your users yours. Now my evaluation with the new subscription model you introduced is that you've exposed yourself to competing directly against the big boys and you may find it hard to compete from a price-to-value-and-feature stand point. I believe, based on what I'm hearing from various places in chat, PMs, emails and here in the forums, you should focus on what your users find valuable with EE, and keep enhancing that. I believe you should look at what drives an esenthel user to being an esenthel user, and use that as your starting point when coming up with new features and payment models. I'm not saying that you aren't doing that, but I'm saying that there is enough proof from what your users are saying that might be closer to that. The last thing you want your existing users to think is, "I'm going to finish this project and move on to another engine", if they want to finish their project at all!
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 02:43 PM by aceio76.)
04-06-2014 02:39 PM
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AndrewBGS Offline
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Post: #19
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
This was supposed to be good news? Why would I like this? The way I see it we're just being forced/"gently suggested" to buy new licences.

The very reason why I bought esenthel in the first place was that it was a one-time-purchase, per-seat, it was perfect, just what I needed. I'm sorry, but I can't hide the fact that I'm very disappointed by this... and if a time will come when I'll be plainly forced to upgrade (because Greg might decide to no longer support EE 2.0 and my version will look like a demo one) I'll just have to leave the engine... Which I'd hate to do, because I really love this engine, but I'm an indie developer, I have no idea if I'm ever going to sell what I'm doing, there's no way I'm getting a subscription licence.

This update has made me very sad. I wish you'd reconsider, and at least provide further support for EE 2.0 too.

Esenthel was the perfect tool for indie developers. Didn't you check your reviews? We loved the licensing system and the affordable price, very suited for indie/hobby developers.

If I had to start off fresh now, and chose an engine for making my game... I'm not sure I'd even consider it. I'm sorry to say this... :|

I agree with aceio; Esenthel should focus on what you already have, you have a strong foothold in the indie community, this is quite a gamble you're taking here and there's a fair chance things might go bad... I don't know much, and I may be wrong, but this is my opinion. Things were great the way they were. Why change that...?
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 03:05 PM by AndrewBGS.)
04-06-2014 03:02 PM
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SamerK Offline
Member

Post: #20
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Firstly, congrats Esenthel for this great move. Now, with this new licensing options, Esenthel Engine has upgraded its reputation more higher by putting it self into the comparison table with other AAA engines (with similar licensing system). For sure this is exciting at the first look but it will be more stressing to Esenthel to deliver more to compete to attract new customers. however, existing customers base are mostly loyal and love the engine, so I think, Esenthel should invest more on them and encourage them to move to the new engine to participate shaping up this new experience .

-------------------------------------

Very well said aceio76
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 03:14 PM by SamerK.)
04-06-2014 03:08 PM
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candam Offline
Member

Post: #21
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Guys after all there are still bright sides like The ability to get source code , getting the engine for a more lower price , the ability to support the engine lifetime .Anyway I like all of the posts you all have a point smile
04-06-2014 03:11 PM
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MrPi Offline
Member

Post: #22
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
I would like to expand my reply with some more points. aceio, Andrew and others had very valid points and I think you (Greg) should really listen what people have to say here. Aceio is right, the move of the big engine developers was caused by entirely different conditions. These engines did cost big bucks a short while ago if you wanted the full deal. What they did was a frontal assault against Unity, which is very successful. Unity's pricing model will have a hard time in the coming months.

I don't think introducing a subscription model (call it month-to-month licenses) is generally a bad idea. But as a replacement for existing licenses: Yes, a very bad idea.
I think they can coexist. But scrap the yearly license then. The subscription model will be for those who are not willing to pay the full amount yet and want to play around with the engine for a month or two. I'd remove the free trial then. It sucks anyway with all these reminders and limits. You can't really work with the trial.

As a general advice, don't try to copy the business model of the big ones. Their intentions are different and they do more than providing the engine (creating games for example).
You should take a look at the customers you already have and make them stay. Make them succeed in what they try to accomplish. Completed and polished products are the best advertisement and word of mouth.
04-06-2014 03:43 PM
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DoerrSt Offline
Member

Post: #23
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
I also think the new subscription based license has some pro's for us, the users, as well as for Greg.

It secures an continous income for Greg - what means his existence and the one of the engine.
With the slight change that the product remains active but not updated anymore if the subscription was cancelled I would be absolutely happy with it.
04-06-2014 03:47 PM
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Pixel Perfect Offline
Member

Post: #24
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
I think ACEIO76 has a point ... it is a gamble, but then you often have to gamble in business to succeed and I'm sure if Greg was happy with his current situation he wouldn't be attempting to change things. Either way, in many ways, his hand is being forced!

Worst case scenario is Greg goes out of business and we all loose!

I don't want to come across as being negative because I really love this engine and I'm now well down a development path and in no way want to abandon that but if I'm to outlay more money I want some more guarantees of what I'll be getting for that.

I don't mind paying for enhancements and updates to the engine, and if that's on a subscription model then so be it. I can see why this is attractive to the developer and should also be to new people coming on board. I'm happy to pay towards the ongoing development of an engine and if I'm going to pay anyone then it might as well be Greg as I respect his engine and design skills.

But what I'd like to see is some firm idea of what I'll be getting as added features/improvements over the next year and have that specified upfront.

I think a road map should state only what is currently planned to be developed against definite timescales and all other items go onto a wish list. Items can be migrated from a wish list onto the road map to reflect customer demand/wishes but the road map should be an effective contract with the subscribing customers.

People generally hate change and don't respond well to it but the simple fact is the world is changing and undoubtedly the big guys are seeing the size of the market place that Unity has generated and want a slice of it. They won't distinguish in any way though, so all indie engines will be fair game!

One possible alternative I can see is to offer a fixed price engine purchase at suitable points in time that is simply supported for bug fixes but offers no future functionality upgrades. That may satisfy people not happy with the subscription model whilst limiting the impact on the designer. So effectively one development path where subscription customers get frequent updates for an ongoing subscription rate whilst fixed price customers have to wait and pay again for future releases but do get to release any games royalty free without any further payments.

Just thinking aloud really!
04-06-2014 04:22 PM
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gwald Offline
Member

Post: #25
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
These comments read almost as bad as the Leadwerks v3 announcement pfft
Looks like lightning does strike twice for some people :/

@Harry, your 'hobby' (Forest Valley on youtube) is what sold me on EE!
I agree the demo of v2 is an excersise in frustration :(
Even as a licensed dev, if you have no/limited internet your stuck with the demo! gaah

I miss the days of a 'once off' price for libraries and stand alone tools :(
That's what EE v2 was at the time I paid for it, things change and I'm getting old dame it!

peace!
04-06-2014 04:25 PM
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AndrewBGS Offline
Member

Post: #26
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
I'll add a few more thoughts, again;
Esenthel shouldn't try to copy other engines. If we liked their methods, we wouldn't be here. Right now there's a reasonable chance you'll lose people with this, and no guarantee you'll get more in return.

You should focus on helping us, the indie developers currently trying to make something with this game; this would be best for everyone: we could finish our games faster, and thus you'd get a lot more advertising. Plus good reviews.

Just a couple of days ago I was thinking of purchasing one or two more licences for some new friends I found that wanted to help me. Because I loved the licensing. And I can see a lot of other people think just like me.
I don't want to leave, I love this engine, but you're pushing me to having no choice.

I really think you should reconsider this, and just improve the current release, raise its price if need be, and help your current community evolve and finish their games. I think this would benefit you most on the long run.
04-06-2014 04:43 PM
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Pixel Perfect Offline
Member

Post: #27
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
(04-06-2014 04:25 PM)gwald Wrote:  These comments read almost as bad as the Leadwerks v3 announcement pfft
Looks like lightning does strike twice for some people :/

...

As a previous Leadwerks 2.0 user I'd have to disagree. That was an entirely different situation where the newly offered engine had huge amounts of functionality missing and represented a big step backwards, and still does as far as I can see wink

This is not the case here as Esenthel 2.0 currently has everything I need so there is really no pressure whatsoever regarding the announcement. However, it could be a better engine and as a result of that I'd happily continue to support it given a better idea of where its planning to be in a years time.

Lightning strike ... where? Guess I missed it lol
04-06-2014 04:46 PM
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AndrewBGS Offline
Member

Post: #28
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
I like your optimism pixel, but it just feels like things are headed in a direction some of us don't want to go. I think that's the summary of what I see here (and what I think)
04-06-2014 04:54 PM
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Ireheart Offline
Member

Post: #29
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
So, if we decide to move to this new "model" of engine, what happens once a year is up? Do we get our account locked so we can no longer use the engine?

Unreal Engine\Cry Engine both allow you to continue working with the engine if you drop your subscription, however you won't get updates, is this the same case?
04-06-2014 07:47 PM
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Ozmodian Offline
Member

Post: #30
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Hi All,

I think the confusion here is the target audience. All of us who currently own 2.0 licenses are not losing anything. We can continue to use the already very complete engine as it is.

I also was a little confused at first since this change was announced without coupling it with a new engine feature, but you have to take it at what it is. It allows new people to join at the same level as other engines which is good. Personally, I will not be switching to this model until a new feature is available for it that I want. That is really the way to look at it in my opinion.

Thanks for continuing to grow the engine Esenthel. Can't wait to see what the future holds.
04-06-2014 08:11 PM
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