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Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
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fuzzylr Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
(04-09-2014 03:33 AM)Rubeus Wrote:  As Esenthel is aware, there will always be clamoring for change; then, when there is change, there will be complaining and griping. You see it every time any product is changed.
Everyone also needs to remember that 2.0 is still around and that the license purchased is still valid. No one is being forced to update/pay more. EE2 works quite well and is capable of releasing games.

Although it is costing me more, I support this transition in the interest of keeping the Esenthel engine active, updated, and moving forward.
According to Esenthel himself 2.0 is being retired. So yes you will be forced at some point to upgrade if you want continued support and patches.

Esenthel Wrote:Also, because I'm releasing a brand new engine version, there won't be any more updates to 2.0.

2.0 is end of life. No more upgrades or patches. That will put you a bad sport without the original source to add features to that product or to self patch.
04-09-2014 03:44 AM
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gwald Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
(04-09-2014 12:48 AM)Esenthel Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 12:22 AM)aceio76 Wrote:  In many ways, there is a feeling that you aren't investing in the success of your users because there hasn't been much done from your part that shows that.
I'm sorry, I think you're being completely un-fair in your statement.

What about releasing the next paid release (current engine version aka 3.0) 6 months later than it should be.
What about releasing new WEB platform support completely free of charge.
What about fixing all bugs/issues in the engine ASAP with updates in next release everytime.
What about my constant devotion to improving the engine by working 7 days 8-12 hours a day.
I could keep going but I don't see the point.

I'm completely aware that some people will never be satisfied.

I agree with Esenthel, completely unfair and the opposite is true!
The license doesn't include support and yet he takes the time to provide personalised support, introduce requested features and great updates (linux! wow!).

IMO Esenthel is a unique engine, and I don't see the point in comparing other engines licenses.
Greg will find a balance of what benefits him and the community, and I applaud him for giving us a voice in his decision making, even tho it's not our business.
04-09-2014 06:37 AM
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AndrewBGS Offline
Member

Post: #78
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
So here's an idea, and I suppose someone will explain to me why it's bad. But I'm thinking of a little compromise that would make me at least very happy.

If you are no longer supporting EE 2.0, couldn't you at least give us the source code for it, so we can improve it ourselves if we need to? I would be willing to pay a bit extra (one-time-only of course pfft) if I could do that.
04-09-2014 07:03 AM
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kevindekever Offline
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Post: #79
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
(04-09-2014 06:37 AM)gwald Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 12:48 AM)Esenthel Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 12:22 AM)aceio76 Wrote:  In many ways, there is a feeling that you aren't investing in the success of your users because there hasn't been much done from your part that shows that.
I'm sorry, I think you're being completely un-fair in your statement.

What about releasing the next paid release (current engine version aka 3.0) 6 months later than it should be.
What about releasing new WEB platform support completely free of charge.
What about fixing all bugs/issues in the engine ASAP with updates in next release everytime.
What about my constant devotion to improving the engine by working 7 days 8-12 hours a day.
I could keep going but I don't see the point.

I'm completely aware that some people will never be satisfied.

I agree with Esenthel, completely unfair and the opposite is true!
The license doesn't include support and yet he takes the time to provide personalised support, introduce requested features and great updates (linux! wow!).

IMO Esenthel is a unique engine, and I don't see the point in comparing other engines licenses.
Greg will find a balance of what benefits him and the community, and I applaud him for giving us a voice in his decision making, even tho it's not our business.

I realy would have payed for an Upgrade to 3.0 for 1 year 100$, because i can use 3.0 after this certain time.
Look @forum discription how many month there where no support.
Webplatform....i did try this and did not work to me (and most work goes to emscripten but another point is security in this)
fixing bugs is a service (you bought 1 year)
Linux support....yeah it was a maximum contribution and a feature, that wasn't necessary to me.

But hey, he did his choice. "Rentalservice for a Gameengine" He changed whithout comunicating to us, it is like the roadmap and eta.
Yeah you are completly right, it's not our business.
04-09-2014 07:03 AM
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Tottel Offline
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Post: #80
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Quote:You may use the Engine only as long as your license subscription is active. If your subscription ends and it's not renewed, you may no longer use the Engine.

To me, that's the biggest issue. If you look at the other engine (like UE4), they simply stop giving you updates if your license expires. But you can still continue to use the software.

On top of that, I think it would be great to have an estimated roadmap for the coming year. This doesn't have to be set in stone, and of course, bugfixes come first; but at least we get an idea of what we are getting for our money.

Features like web support, oculus rift and Esenthel Store in the engine are great, but they get pushed to the top without anyone knowing about it.
I like suprises, I really do, but I looked at the roadmap when Esenthel 2.0 was released, and most of the things that were at the top back then are still there. They have even moved down.

I think these are the issues that a lot of people struggle with, not the price.

In any case, good luck, it's exciting anyway!
04-09-2014 08:12 AM
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andrake Offline
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Post: #81
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
early sometimes, when i used this engine i think, creator if this engine : when he made engine and all who want - already buy this licenses...what he will do next, he need money for life. develop new feature for 200$ in month is not enought for this.
going to subscription system is logically should be happens. it's liitlebit sad for me but i good understood the Author. may be with this license mode he will be more happy and will make engine better...)
04-09-2014 10:16 AM
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DoerrSt Offline
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Post: #82
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
(04-09-2014 08:12 AM)Tottel Wrote:  
Quote:You may use the Engine only as long as your license subscription is active. If your subscription ends and it's not renewed, you may no longer use the Engine.

To me, that's the biggest issue. If you look at the other engine (like UE4), they simply stop giving you updates if your license expires. But you can still continue to use the software.

On top of that, I think it would be great to have an estimated roadmap for the coming year. This doesn't have to be set in stone, and of course, bugfixes come first; but at least we get an idea of what we are getting for our money.

Features like web support, oculus rift and Esenthel Store in the engine are great, but they get pushed to the top without anyone knowing about it.
I like suprises, I really do, but I looked at the roadmap when Esenthel 2.0 was released, and most of the things that were at the top back then are still there. They have even moved down.

I think these are the issues that a lot of people struggle with, not the price.

In any case, good luck, it's exciting anyway!


I fully agree that the disabling of the engine is the biggest issue - I bought the engine just 2 months ago with the idea in mind: "Updates for one year" and I can use it as long as I want.
Now 2 months later I have the choice: Use it for max 10 months from now or beeing desupported after 2 months.

Both doesn't really make me happy. It's not really the price; it's quite cheap and I need to say Esenthel does a good job. Support is extremely fast and new additions like Linux or Web-Support for free are really outstanding.

The new licensing is, compared with the "other" big engines not that good from different points of view:

UDK: Pay $ 20 and you get the engine, source and you can use it forever - also if you cancel your subscription.

-> To be honest, I can't imagine that Esenthel can live with this. He needs money to live. So it would be nearly impossible to compete with this.

CryEngine:
- Use for free or - if commercial - pay $10- really, also here - I think it will be impossible to live from.

One remark to those both engines: Keep in mind that also if you cancel your subscription the publishing of games is not free at all. Both(?) will constantly earn money if you sell any piece of software - what Esenthel doesn't do.

Unity:

Here you have two possibilites:

Pay $ 75 a month for the engine, add $ 75 for iOS Pro and $ 75 for Android Pro and $ 25 for the team license. Which looks for me much more expensive than the license of Esenthel.

OR and here comes the difference to Esenthels new license

Pay $1500 and use the engine as long as you want. But also here you need to pay another $ 600 if you want an upgrade to the current version after a year. So also here it you have to pay again after a new version is released.

Personally I prefer the Unity model. Everyone can decide if he wants to pay $ 199 a year for a new update or if he prefers to subscribe and loose the access if he cancel his subscription.

I read somewhere that the "big" thing for Esenthel 3.0 is missing. Yes, it is - but why? Esenthel delivered Linux and Web-Support in a regular update at no costs. If he had hold this until the release of 3.0 we had a "big" thing. Wasn't it better to have this feature as early as possible instead of waiting for a 3.0 release?
For sure the Roadmap is a bit "faithless", getting something we can count on should be mandatory as Esenthel needs to calculate a bit with the income we need to have a raw roadmap what we get.
04-09-2014 10:44 AM
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MrPi Offline
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Post: #83
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
I think most people here are unhappy with the way this transition was actually performed. More transparency and communication of events a decent time upfront would ease everyone's mood.
I'm looking forward to Greg's decisions based on the polls and the input in this thread.
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2014 03:15 PM by MrPi.)
04-09-2014 02:30 PM
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yvanvds Offline
Silver Supporter

Post: #84
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
I'm not sure this thread needs any more replies, but I guess it is the best way to show my support for this decision.

I am using this engine for a few years now. This year I started to take on some smaller mobile projects and Esenthel is just perfect for them. This means it is in my best interest that Greg can make a living out of it. Because if he can't I will lose all the time I've spent studying this engine.

Someone already calculated here how much montly licenses are needed for UK minimum wages. Quite a lot, it seems. And it is widely known that of all problems a person can have, financial ones weigh the most on what you're able to achieve. If the developer of this engine worries much about how to pay the rent, he certainly can't think about the next engine feature.

So it's in everyone's best interest that Greg makes a decent living out of this. Not only will the engine disappear if he doesn't (forcing you to spend time on something else) but also progress will be less if he has trouble paying his bills.

Taking that into account, the rest of the argument doesn't matter much. You might think some things should be done differently, but most of what I've read here is a bit subjective at least.

The only real way to for us to ensure we can keep using this engine is by making sure Greg stays in business. You can do this by buying one or more licenses or by convincing other people to buy it. In that respect it is a pity not more of us succeed in actually releasing a game. More games released with Esenthel would be the best advertising. And more paying users would mean more engine development.
04-09-2014 02:45 PM
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Tottel Offline
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Post: #85
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Nicely said, Yvan.

I know that I'll still get a license, no matter what. I still think Esenthel is a fantastic engine, and I'm very much willing to keep Greg's head above water. Financially, that is.

However, I'm just waiting to pick up that license until I know if he wants to do some changes after those polls. Just to make both our lives a bit easier.
04-09-2014 03:41 PM
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fuzzylr Offline
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Post: #86
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Yvan Wrote:The only real way to for us to ensure we can keep using this engine is by making sure Greg stays in business. You can do this by buying one or more licenses or by convincing other people to buy it. In that respect it is a pity not more of us succeed in actually releasing a game. More games released with Esenthel would be the best advertising. And more paying users would mean more engine development.

Ok, this thought process sounds a bit wrong. You don't want to loose the engine so you want to keep Greg in business?? That is not your responsibility. Your over extending your reach here and that is bad both financially and personally. It is on Greg's shoulders to make this engine succeed. I am not suggesting not to buy his engine. By all means if you enjoy his product support it. But at the end of the day It's on Greg's head to market his engine and to be successful. By reaching his target audience and generate revenue that will ultimately increase his user base.

I am not trying to be rude here. It is not nor will ever be our responsibilities to keep Greg supplied with money. That is the biggest fallacy I see on this forum. There are some serious concerns on this post about the new licensing model and I am sure Greg will work them out. However, our pricing and licensing should have no bearing on weather or not Greg can make a living. If Greg chooses to make a game engine for a living then he should be devising a way to generate more income to support his dream. Maybe even using a referral system. I believe the subscription based idea will help with his money issues. However, I have seen a lot of complaints that the money being put into the engine is not being used for customer based requests. This will ultimately put the engine out of business in it's own right as people will feel less supportive to get features they did not request. You can't please all the people all the time but you sure as hell can't ignore them either.
04-09-2014 04:16 PM
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Rubeus Offline
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Post: #87
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
(04-09-2014 03:41 PM)Tottel Wrote:  Nicely said, Yvan.

I know that I'll still get a license, no matter what. I still think Esenthel is a fantastic engine, and I'm very much willing to keep Greg's head above water. Financially, that is.

However, I'm just waiting to pick up that license until I know if he wants to do some changes after those polls. Just to make both our lives a bit easier.

Same. I'm even (seriously) considering picking up the full source and contributing to development. I have a full time job, and I do game development as a hobby. I'm not rich, but I know that every hobby costs money. I personally think Esenthel is a good investment, even with the new subscription fees. A far better investment than that new cell phone with a data plan that costs $150 a month, right?
04-09-2014 04:24 PM
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yvanvds Offline
Silver Supporter

Post: #88
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
@Fuzzylr: I'm not saying it is my responsibility. I'm saying it will cost me a lot more if I have to change engines. More even because other game engines i've seen are mostly not usable for the stuff I make. So yes, it is in my best interest to keep the engine going.

About the engine features: Greg could just as well have waited with the release of the linux en web features (among others) for 3.0. Those were no small improvements. Instead he released them when ready so that everyone could use them instantly. I think it is a bit silly to complain about 3.0 not having enough new features to warrant the new version when so much stuff happened in the months before.

But perhaps Greg could label the really new features he releases during the year as '4.0 beta'? That way there will be enough 'new' stuff the next time there's an upgrade smile
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2014 11:01 PM by yvanvds.)
04-09-2014 04:33 PM
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Pixel Perfect Offline
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Post: #89
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
(04-09-2014 04:16 PM)fuzzylr Wrote:  ...
Ok, this thought process sounds a bit wrong. You don't want to loose the engine so you want to keep Greg in business?? That is not your responsibility. Your over extending your reach here and that is bad both financially and personally. It is on Greg's shoulders to make this engine succeed.
...
I think we are playing with words here! Whilst it is not anyone's responsibility to keep Greg in business those of us who have invested greatly in terms of the learning curve and also happen to really like the engine have a vested interest in keeping Greg in business. It becomes a kind of symbiotic relationship or at least it should be which is what Yvan was really alluding to I believe.

I agree there are valid arguments being expressed from many quarters about the manner in which this has been done and the nature of the change but I for one do not want to move engines yet again, I would probably pack up altogether than do that again to be honest!

Everyone has a point of view and is free to air those and I hope Greg will take those on board but there is probably no way of him satisfying everyone ... but for sure if Greg can't continue financially then it is the end of Esenthel for everyone!
04-09-2014 04:34 PM
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aceio76 Offline
Silver Supporter

Post: #90
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
@yvan, I agree with all your points about supporting EE (I've spent probably as much as you have in licenses and contributions), but it is still contigent upon me feeling like my support is valuable to esenthel. I'm not saying that esenthel doesn't value my support, use of the engine and monetary contributions in his own mind, but what I'm saying is whether the way he continues to conduct business (with me and others) show appreciation. An example of this could include running polls before making abrupt licensing changes, asking the community what is an acceptable "new major version" that we'd be interested in upgrading to, offering a good migration license deal for being a xxxxxxx license holder, etc.

But like I've said, I've shown my support by continually purchasing licenses, code, upgrading and contributing money. I know how it feels to migrate from one engine to another, so as much as possible, I'd like to stick around (I've communicated this with Greg that I'm a captured audience), and he's not really done anything directly to me that offends me and makes me want to leave. So I am doing exactly just what you said, giving money in show of my support.

I'm just anxious now to see how we all move past this. I really hate to hear folks want to leave, as I keep hearing in the shadows and corners, which would lead to exactly what you are pointing out, yvan, esenthel not able to stick around.
04-09-2014 04:34 PM
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