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Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
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KraaxLeNain Offline
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Post: #91
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Hi community,

For my part and I hope not to double opinion with someone else, since I cross read some of the posts, I'm not here to complain but to says that I think the previous economic systems was more suitable for some of the actors here.

I'm not here to grumbleor anything, and I understand completely the need to have a more stable and clearer income.

So far as I'm concerned I did acknowledged the fact that version were made with a yearly basis and therefor that support would have stop at the end, with new version release. And I took that into account.

I think the monthly basis payment somewhat can be bad for some of the coders :
-Making a game on EE 2.0 version March for instance, if you completed it and want to correct few bugs, you need to have access to the last version you used, if you don't want to replace a lot of your code since name changes happens. Hence having a stable release, with no more support and changes but still usable is a good thing in my point of view for a little team who wants just to makes it's product live. And having to pay monthly fees in order to provide small patches can be a stopper for small teams which are not monetizing their products.
-Not daily programming since it's not my main work for now, I feel "guilty" with the subscription marketing when I don't move at the correct pace or don't code a whole month, since now my programming time is not only costing time, it's also cost money (little money, but still ^^). The cost is not a threat, but the feeling is bad : buying EE.2.0 I'd say myself "Well this is a good product, I can make something nice with it, at my pace" , switching to a monthly basis payment it'll be a run more then a walk.
-With the year version system, I could choice whether the game engine was actually enough for my needs or if last release gave something more that might push me to invest more. This is important because the strategic choices of development made in past few months might not be the one expected by all the users. For instance I'm waiting for lots of the roadmap features to be implemented. there had been cool new features (web development, some android/Ios Stuffs [...]) which are good for the engine development and opening interesting doors but I'd personally like the key features of the roadmap to be implemented first since it seems that the roadmap stacks is overflowing and bottom priority items appears to be stuck there. With the every year new release, somewhat I got the choice to stick with my old version if I did not feel like the new one was an improvement for my development, whereas in subscription system I pay for a "time of use". So I feel more like a renter then a buyer (and I don't like to rent grin).

The version system was the one suiting my needs, but I'm no Pro-Programmer and my approach might not be one of the core target of a game engine. Still I wanted to share it.

I hope that EE.2 will still be fully usable (not talking of support, just talking of full version still available), and looks forward susbscribing the new version when I'll have more time to dedicate to my Esenthel projects (since I'm sure that Esenthel will make enough kick-ass new features for me to feel that I must absolutely upgrade my product grin).

To be clear I'm not here to complain, just to defend the previous economic structures, more suitable to the need of some (but not all) users.

I'd also like to state that's not essentially a money problem, since the prices are reasonable.

Keeps the good job done see ya all !
(This post was last modified: 04-10-2014 10:45 AM by KraaxLeNain.)
04-10-2014 10:35 AM
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rstralberg Offline
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Post: #92
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
I like the new approach as it makes my yearly expenses predictable.
04-10-2014 11:52 AM
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para Offline
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Post: #93
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Not that my opinion matters one bit, but I'd have to agree with KraaxLeNain.
04-10-2014 04:38 PM
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Rubeus Offline
Member

Post: #94
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Why would your opinion not matter? The whole reason Esenthel re-priced his product was because the users voiced their opinions. Granted, not everyone can be pleased. But having your opinion expressed in a well-articulated argument will allow Esenthel to know what the mood of his users is, and potentially work on a solution. Nothing may come of it, but only a fool runs a business while ignoring the opinions of the users.
04-10-2014 07:06 PM
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Fex Offline
Bronze Supporter

Post: #95
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Happy to support Greg, I don't want him having to go to work in the salt mines to pay rent when he should be at home working on the next patch.

I have 1.0 and 2.0 licenses and think this is a great change. honestly I could complete my game with 1.0, but a few hundred dollars to essentially have an engine programmer working on your project is a good deal.
04-19-2014 12:23 AM
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Dwight Offline
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Post: #96
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
I stayed out of this discussion for quite some time now, and this will also be the only post [granted I'm not getting a reasonable response] in which I will ventilate my opinion.

I have a 1.0 license, 2.0 license, and now the binary license [source license is not yet needed]. Although I also build worlds in other game engines, I keep purchasing the options that Greg offers, simply to support him.

Ladies and gentlemen, I have more subscriptions running currently! I have a subscription at my local gym for 33 euro's, which allows me to go there 24/7, 365.25 days per year to use their equipment. I get 1 professional trainer that every 6 weeks re-evaluates (updates?) my programm to my specific needs in order to grow stronger.
Greg is doing the exact same thing. This subscription model allows for a more steady income, as well as provide Greg with more motivation. Imagine how it is like to just go 3 weeks not selling a single license of just 200 dollars, and then have people continuously trying to get things as cheap as possible. I think you guys should try and understand how it is like. We are all in quite a luxorious position here, never forget that.

The world of a game designer, programmer, producer or engine creator [indie-level] is not an easy one; solely living of the money you make with this will neither support your happiness, nor will it assure your future, at least for most people. I have an education (studied more than 6 hours per day on average over the last 12 years, still studying for the next 4-5 years), and have a well-payed job already which allows me to pursue my hobby / dream. In the time I have been with Greg and his engine, I have learned how to create 3D Models fast, texture them, how to create user interfaces, and even how to use web-programming and a basic C++, not to forget I have had the priviledge to meet amazing people from whom I learned even more, and who challenges me to become even better.

Now that was deffinitely worth the amount I gave to Greg to help him build his engine over the last years, and I will continue to support him. Period.
04-19-2014 08:10 AM
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rstralberg Offline
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Post: #97
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Very well put Dwight and I totally agree with what you are saying.
04-19-2014 09:21 AM
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Pixel Perfect Offline
Member

Post: #98
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
(04-19-2014 12:23 AM)Fex Wrote:  Happy to support Greg, I don't want him having to go to work in the salt mines to pay rent when he should be at home working on the next patch.
I don't really think this will be necessary as to my knowledge, at least up until recently, Greg has held the position of Game Engine Designer at Grinding Gear Games in New Zealand and of course with his talents I would expect would be in demand in many game studios around the world (not that those positions come up often or are necessarily easy take up due to location changes).

However, I don't think this in anyway changes the situation that he deserves reasonable recompense for the work he puts into maintaining this engine and if that is done in his free time then most of us should sympathise with that position, doing the same ourselves and knowing how demanding that is on top of holding down a full time job or attending college!

Dwight is right, the cost on a weekly basis is minimal to most of us and other hobbies/interests often cost us much more than this.

I have seen the respect for software development over the years change, mainly I believe down to the appearance of 'open source' software and seemingly the belief of a lot of youngsters that if people charge a reasonable amount for their software then they are somehow 'ripping people off'. Yet most of those same people expect payment for the jobs they do and would be outraged if anyone suggested they should work for free.

So in retrospect, we shouldn't expect anything of value for nothing and we should support Greg if we expect this engine to develop and grow.
04-19-2014 09:28 AM
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knocks Offline
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Post: #99
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
J wellington syndrome, developers are as much to blame as the consumer.
04-19-2014 11:21 AM
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aceio76 Offline
Silver Supporter

Post: #100
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Quote:... the cost on a weekly basis is minimal to most of us and other hobbies/interests often cost us much more than this.

I just wanted to chime in that while I do agree with the truth in the statement, there is still the valid perspective from the client/consumer/user that what he is paying for should be:
- of quality no less than the value of a competing product elsewhere
- the patronage of the user is valued by the business and that mutual respect is applied on both ends where the business doesn't act in such a way that its consumers are "cash-cows", at least openly grin
- agreements between the business and its clients are firm, and that if there are changes, ample notice is provided, and the changes itself, when activated, is not a one-sided approach
- (there are many others, but not relevant for now)

Of course much of this is subject to personal opinion (esp if there is no real business experience from either side), but there are many companies out there that can be used as role-models. As for the users, users will ALWAYS complain even if there's nothing to complain about, that is the nature of a B2C (business to consumer) setup, and companies should welcome complaints because it shows the users' passion and exposes issues that a company may use to adjust/align its products with. But when the complaining stops (and its never because there's nothing to complain about), that's when things have gone real bad.

Now with all this said, I think many of us have looked (or started to look) at Esenthel directly as "Greg's baby and source of income", and hence we've become very supportive even if it isn't advantageous for us users (not a bad thing necessarily). I'm not saying that is the case for most of us, but there are certainly some of us in that situation because they are already neck deep in their project and can't afford to switch to another engine while their project is riddled with issues. I also just want to point out that if the users are running their businesses too (ie game studio making games for a living), they would not be acting like this (for the most part), because their actions will (and should) always be in favor of their own business. Just looking at this tidbit tells what sort of users use ee, but that's a different topic smile

So please be cognizant that while you can make statements that basically says "shut up and support EE because it costs less than what you would spend elsewhere in another hobby or vice", that isn't applicable to all and that there are real scenarios present that does warrant complaining and griping. And of course, there are those that have legitimate complaints but still support Greg and ee anyway smile
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2014 03:07 PM by aceio76.)
04-19-2014 02:03 PM
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AndrewBGS Offline
Member

Post: #101
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
I'm no longer commenting on this, but just a thought... I like that Steve guy from Arteria or whatever; Lifetime membership; He got my money a long time ago, and he's almost certainly never going to get any more from me.

And yet, when I just asked him to do some personal modifications to a model for me so I can use it in Esenthel, he did it right away. smile

so somehow, that kind of business is possible. Makes you think.

(I did NOT mean to blame, be ironic, or anything else; I just wanted to point out that the policy of - help my customer even if i no longer expect anything from him - DOES exist. just that)
04-19-2014 02:18 PM
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rstralberg Offline
Member

Post: #102
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
@AndresBGS
Remember that Arteria 3D is not in the same situation. They are selling many products, one by one or at subscription, while Esenthel is one product only. You cant compare apples with pears.
---

I can't really understand all this whining about EE. First of all EE price is more or less a bargain and the support is far better than I have seen with any engine. The roadmap is absolutely great. Besides that, EE is not full of bugs and clutter. Then we have this thing about owning the engine. As Esenthel have written and Dwight put so well above. Even if you own the engine you will have to update more or less each year anyway to keep up with new things in various OS and computer environment. The engine doesn't live in a bubble independent of what Windows, Apple and Linux does. So what the big deal, you will have to pay the money anyway. Getting such a great engine with source for roughly 200 bucks/year, that's a real bargain.

First there was a big hello about the subscription prices, so Esenthel did listen to you and lowered the price to a very compelling level. Now that's not good either. Now you want to own the engine for this price. I would personally be more or less ashamed to claim such things. If you need to own the engine with source, the price would be so much higher, probably by a factor 5-10. Are you willing to pay that...

I have been through this grumbling with some other engines and it seems that what ever the engine seller does it will always be wrong. Yearly updates - No.. to expensive, Subscription - No.. then we are hooked... Come on! EE is a good engine and has a very compelling subscription price. The difference between 'owning' the license or have a subscription is more or less semantic. In each case you have to make your updates anyway to keep up with the winds of change.

Just my little ranting on this.
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2014 03:20 PM by rstralberg.)
04-19-2014 02:57 PM
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Rubeus Offline
Member

Post: #103
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
(04-19-2014 11:21 AM)knocks Wrote:  J wellington syndrome, developers are as much to blame as the consumer.

What does this mean? And what if the developers ARE the consumers? o.O
04-19-2014 03:13 PM
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Dwight Offline
Member

Post: #104
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
(04-19-2014 03:13 PM)Rubeus Wrote:  
(04-19-2014 11:21 AM)knocks Wrote:  J wellington syndrome, developers are as much to blame as the consumer.

What does this mean? And what if the developers ARE the consumers? o.O

This syndrome is from the town of Wellington [I hope he means this, it's quite a rude statement otherwise], in which people from Wellington dislike literally everything from Auckland.

Implication for the case at hand: Whatever Greg does, you lot won't be satisfied.
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2014 03:34 PM by Dwight.)
04-19-2014 03:33 PM
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aceio76 Offline
Silver Supporter

Post: #105
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
@rstralberg: I agree with you about some of the griping and its lack of real reasoning, but I disagree that its primary source is the cost. It is plainly simple to see that it is very reasonable. But reading through all the complaints, yes, what is often mentioned is the cost, but that isn't the root of the issue--it's the drastic change. Just to give an example, when someone says to you that you pay one price and you get access (and even support) continuously, then later on move away from that model of monetization to another in an abrupt way, especially if it wasn't forecasted to you ahead of time, under a typical company-to-user scenario, would you be okay with that? Another is, if you purchased/paid for/etc a software license less than a year then have to pay again (whatever reason it is even if there is some carry over in support/updates/etc) within the same year when your expectation is that you wouldn't have to until the following year, would you be okay with that, again, under normal circumstances?

Fortunately, Greg has addressed most of the above by doing several polls, then adjusting his monetization plan based on the responses. But as you already know, you can NEVER please everyone, since even running polls will only please the majority and could potentially ignore/neglect the minority. Such is the norm and as a business, one have to pick battles carefully. Also, a big hard lesson to learn is that managing consumer happiness is managing their expectations.

I think everyone knows (both companies and users) that change is constant (always going to happen), but its the approach of how the change is applied (so that it's not abrupt, appears seamless and easy to accept by the users, etc) that makes a whole lot of difference. All in all, I agree that many of grumblings may appear trivial, but that is highly subjective to each user and how difficult/easy for a company to adapt what the complaints are about.

There is a mantra in B2C companies: the customer is always right. If you run your company in this mentality, you have a better chance of managing their expectations better proactively. One should never minimize a complaint, even if it is trivial or otherwise. If you are a company but can't adopt this mentality, then you shouldn't act as a company but act as a person dealing with another person in an exchange of goods, more of a one on one approach. That way, there is a potential higher chance of making more users happy. But of course, that isn't a hard set rule, but more of a guideline, and completely subjective on how that is applied.
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2014 03:41 PM by aceio76.)
04-19-2014 03:40 PM
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