As much as I know this forum doesn't get much attention, I haven't had any luck so far finding programming help to finish up my game so I'm leaving this thread here incase any programmers are looking for a solid project with a promising funding campaign.

Check your PMs/emails, you've got mail.

Well I am willing to help, I need to create many of the tools for any game I would want to make in the future.

(03-10-2013 01:59 PM)uNetti Wrote:  Well I am willing to help, I need to create many of the tools for any game I would want to make in the future.

your newer then me, are you a programmer or a business man or both, I can tell from your first post?

I was thinking of helping but being new its more of a risk to this project then benifetting.

New to Esenthel, old school programmer. If I was a risk I doubt companies would pay me as good as they do, my background speaks for itself. The risk is mine, spending hours delivering good code that I normally charge a smaller city for.

You took me out of context - game dev with esenthel.
I'm an old school C64 programmer back in the 80s too.
Now, I'm a java/oracle hacker that's my day job

I've hacked an esenthel demo but I don't pretend I can code it.
Time in front of esenthel is the only way to get good.
And without being good, you, me, us beginners are a risk (IMO).

One thing I've learned about programmers that set's them apart from every single other discipline of game development - They don't like to take risks.

I see it constantly and it's a real shame.

If we don't know how to decently program an MMO, we're not going to help you because we'd probably end up wasting time for both of us.

(03-11-2013 04:51 AM)EthanC Wrote:  One thing I've learned about programmers that set's them apart from every single other discipline of game development - They don't like to take risks.

I see it constantly and it's a real shame.

A few things I've learned about Game Designers and Artsts that set's them apart from every single other discipline of game development - They all want to make MMOs, they expect programmers to want to invest many hours into their 'ideas' and they generally aren't willing to learn the skills they lack to write their games.

I see it constantly and it's a real shame.

Only fools rush in...

I don't mean to be rude in saying this but comments like that aren't going to help your case... People hate being pigeon holed.

Keep in mind that most of the programmers already here on this board are already making their own games.
That being said(and speaking as a programmer myself), we are a very pragmatic bunch. Writing code for an MMO is a monstrous undertaking with extremely high risk(for the project) and(relatively) low return.
Some of us would be willing to do it as a hobby job(myself, for example) were it not for projects of our own and real life that got in the way--for instance, I'm currently working on my Cisco certifications.
Personally, I love taking risks. My current project is a risk-it's not so much about the risk, it's about the rate of return that goes with the risk. If my project doesn't go over like a lead balloon(I give it 50/50, given the rather unique idea behind it), I should get a pretty good rate of return on it.

@EthanC
When I said "And without being good, you, me, us beginners are a risk (IMO). "
That's a risk to your project not me and the other newbies!

IMO, You should specify what kind of people you are looking for ie specify their levels of Esenthel and/or C++ experience you would find expectable.

@Scarlet Thread
I liked what you said about artist and designers having little to no risk in game development.
Programming is mental gymnastics

(03-12-2013 10:58 AM)gwald Wrote:  @EthanC
IMO, You should specify what kind of people you are looking for and specify the level of Esenthel experience you would find expectable.

What kind of people: Irrelevant
Esenthel experience: Irrelevant

I have every single other thing you could possibly need to finish a game with the features we're working on. Even one of the top three mmo networking infrastructure guys on earth. Artists. Composers. Everyone literally just waiting in line behind a game that literally stopped just because of the programmer situation. It's tragic.

Programmers aren't Voltron unfortunately. I can't combine 5 or 6 "i can put in 2 hours per week" guys into one department lead. It doesn't work that way sadly.

The only thing I need is one person to step in who actually has the drive to be the programming team leader and I don't need anything else. I don't care about their experience as long as they're willing to seriously learn, only their loyalty and if I have to buy it, I will.

Wow, this thread is getting serious isnt it?

I think the points that everyone have made are valid, especially when it comes to risks. But, to some degree, what Ethan was saying about programmers not willing to take risks, large or small, I have to agree with also ( if you have several months spare for listening to Ethan, then ask him to give you examples of programmers who don't take risks ).

MMOs are MASSIVE projects, no doubt about it. They take time, effort, money and man-power. We all know this, it's stating the obvious. Speaking from my small amount of experience, I have been on the development team for two MMOs in the last 10 years, the first one being my own personal project which I designed, planned, built a team for and got a basic skeleton of an MMO up and running and learnt as I went along.

The second one though, was the biggest challenge I have ever taken on in my life. I offered to help out for free because I needed programming experience. It was that job that taught me how to program, even though I definitely couldn't see me handling bigger tasks on that project. Yes, I am not a brilliant programmer, but I know enough. The five years I was on that job, I was learning as I was going along and I had my own day job too, so I wasn't even on the project full-time, just the 'couple of hours a week guy' that Ethan mentioned.

What I learnt, what code I wrote, what I saw I was capable of, is beyond anything I ever dreamed. I learnt how to write networking code and even integrated it into a commercial game engine. Sure, I made mistakes, it took time, it was very difficult, but I got there.

As many have said in this topic, there are major risks, and mostly to the project and its designer but I don't think it is the biggest problem some programmers have with MMOs. Speaking personally, I think it is the amount of time you will spend learning, making mistakes, correcting your mistakes and making some progress with the MMO that is the hardest problem. It will take longer than a single player, 2D or 3D platformer, top-down shooter etc to build and it seems impossible to most people anyway. Even I don't think I can single-handedly build an MMO, but it is worth it.

But, if you want to be a better programmer, can learn on the job and have a little time available, try it, because there is little risk to you and like me, you might be surprised what you learn. I am not saying that if you want to be a better programmer and can learn on the job that working on an MMO is the only way to go, it is just an option that I don't feel anyone should avoid because they don't think they are capable enough.

I could talk about this subject for hours, so I think i'll stop there. Look forward to hearing everyones thoughts.

You make a good point Jonathon but unless Ethan is looking to spend another 5 years waiting for programmers to learn the ropes I'd say its pretty essential that he gets an experienced MMO programmer for the role of Lead Programmer.

A good lead programmer could then plan and delegate the work to other less experienced programmers on the team allowing input from people with less experience and or less time to invest. This is more constructive for all involved as it streamlines production and avoids a lot of the pitfalls less experienced programmers are likely to fall into otherwise.

Loyalty is an important factor especially when you have nurtured a project like this for so long; so I can relate directly to that.

(03-12-2013 10:53 PM)Pixel Perfect Wrote:  You make a good point Jonathon but unless Ethan is looking to spend another 5 years waiting for programmers to learn the ropes I'd say its pretty essential that he gets an experienced MMO programmer for the role of Lead Programmer.

A good lead programmer could then plan and delegate the work to other less experienced programmers on the team allowing input from people with less experience and or less time to invest. This is more constructive for all involved as it streamlines production and avoids a lot of the pitfalls less experienced programmers are likely to fall into otherwise.

Loyalty is an important factor especially when you have nurtured a project like this for so long; so I can relate directly to that.

Yes, very true Pixel, well said.