Hi all,

My subject line pretty much sums it up.

I've been trying to work on the pre-production elements of my game and am having a seriously difficult time of it.

Here's the deal. I know this game world, its history, lore, races, etc... inside-out, like the back of my hand (well, just about). As this is a game world and setting I first came up with literally over a decade ago, and have continued to expand, improve and iterate on, I've literally lived with this entire world in my head for all this time. All its characters, major events, wars, etc. etc.. all shoved in there.

Of course, that only goes so far. If I have any hopes of people who, at some point, will come on board to bring their talents to bear in making it a reality, I need to get this stuff down in writing, in sketches, etc.

The problem is... I can't seem to do it.

If I could get on Skype, or Vent or what-not and talk to someone, or even face-to-face, I could rattle off detailed explanations of just about everything, almost as though I'd been there. I just can not seem to get it down in written form.

As long as I'm not at the computer, I can think through these things lucidly, and even explain them to myself - out loud - in a way that is concise and easy to understand.

I sit at the computer, I open a new text document, get the title down and.... whoosh... It's gone. I get nothing. I don't know where to start. I don't know how to get these ideas down into cohesive sentences, paragraphs, categories, etc.

I get fed up and frustrated and just close the program to do something else.

It's like the computer has some weird effect on me where it just wipes away my memory and puts a wall up between my memory/imagination, and my ability to convey an idea in words.

I think the problem is that, with spoken explanations, I can get details out quickly, and any sort of explanations or definitions are easily provided as I go. In writing, I find that things I'm explaining rely on knowledge of other things that, while related, aren't really relevant to the topic I'm trying to describe.

And so, I think at least *part* of the problem, is organizing, separating and categorizing the information.

I've tried plain text documents (Libre Office), I've tried a personal wiki, I've tried "The Guide" (a sorta offline personal wiki/note-taking app). I've tried a number of approaches. I just can't seem to get around that barrier.

This has been a major obstacle that I've been unable to get around myself for, literally, a few years now. I'm not kidding. I've given up on the project and tried to work on other things. But those "other things" aren't my passion. They're not what I'm driven to do. This project is. My brain just won't let me move forward on it. I'm quite literally getting in my own way.

I think part of the problem is that I'm something of a "visual thinker" - which is actually a real thing. Basically, I don't think things in terms of organized or chronological thoughts or events. I think of everything "visually", all at once, as an entire picture. So, instead of providing info in an ordered and coherent manner, I tend to try explaining "everything about the picture at once". I believe that *might* be part of it.

So, while I wouldn't wish this frustration on anyone, I also kinda selfishly hope that maybe someone around here has experienced something similar (if not as bad), or can intuitively understand what I'm dealing with and, perhaps, provide some advice or tips on how they've handled it? Maybe some tips on how to get down, organize and provide the information? Some kind of structure?

Any kind of advice or tips would be incredibly appreciated. You'd certainly get a Special Thank You in the credits of the game (for what it's worth.. considering I've nothing to show yet ).

Thank You in advance.

I'll give you advice..because I am also a writer. what you need is drama. Even the best action movies have drama. X-men has lore, right but there are forbidden love stories..people falling in and out of love between the characters. people form grudges or perhaps an event happens that causes one to covet what another has. Perhaps its revenge that they seek. remember, cause and effect...this happened, but because this happened a million other things could spring from it. and most importantly...drama...drama..drama. you might hate it, but the world can't get enough of it. that's why jerry springer was popular. it was all garbage, but its all drama. even if it is fake drama...still drama. and reality tv....pure 100 percent crap tv, but it's still drama. that's why people watch that garbage. so you have lore, you have a world, you have wars, blah blah blah...now its time to write the garbage parts.

lol interesting advice, that!

Really, there's a lot of drama involved in it already. The entire setting of the game/world is the result of an on-going drama, on multiple levels, involving key individuals in the world. A lot of deception, or "things not being what they seem". So I definitely have the drama in-place.

The issue isn't a lack of what to write about. It's more an issue of being able to get it down in an organized and coherent manner. Maybe "writer's block" was a poor way to describe it.

I suspect what I'm looking for would be more about a good way to structure things. If there's a kind of "skeleton" I could follow as an outline or something; a way to break things down and "get them out of my head" in a way that would make sense to others reading it.

Again, it all makes sense to me already, and I can certainly verbalize it well enough. It's getting it in writing that's messing me up.

there are two kinds of writers out there....ones that just write to see where the story takes them, and writers who have to write down events in a chronological order before they start writing. I'm more of the latter. I have to visualize my whole story...I have to story tell it a million times, driving everyone around me crazy. so I found out that I am an organizer, because that's what I am constantly doing. I'm trying to organize it in my brain. I suggest making a list on paper of all key events that has to happen. write it down or type it...whatever it takes. when you go to type it. focus on that one event alone. put the rest of it out of your mind because you might surprise yourself and want to all of a sudden take your story in a different direction. if it goes to a different direction. pause, write down your events again, that include your new events. do this over and over until you have completed your story. GoodLuck!

(06-08-2013 06:30 AM)Shatterstar Wrote:  there are two kinds of writers out there....ones that just write to see where the story takes them, and writers who have to write down events in a chronological order before they start writing. I'm more of the latter. I have to visualize my whole story...I have to story tell it a million times, driving everyone around me crazy. so I found out that I am an organizer, because that's what I am constantly doing. I'm trying to organize it in my brain. I suggest making a list on paper of all key events that has to happen. write it down or type it...whatever it takes. when you go to type it. focus on that one event alone. put the rest of it out of your mind because you might surprise yourself and want to all of a sudden take your story in a different direction. if it goes to a different direction. pause, write down your events again, that include your new events. do this over and over until you have completed your story. GoodLuck!

I definitely want to be in the second camp, especially in this case lol. That's what I've been considering; pick an event, or particular detail (character, location, etc) and "play it out" in its entirety. Then move on to the next. Perhaps treat each subject as a stand-alone "document", and then have a list of related topics linked at the end.

If you don't mind my asking, how do you handle situations where, say, there's an event, or a character or something that ties in to other parts of the story, or setting, etc... that the reader would need to know about? Do you provide information about those things "in-line"? Or do you provide a cross-reference to let them review it on their own?

Keep in mind, my goal here isn't so much to write a linear story, but to document a lot of information that describes the world of my game, sets up the story, explains why things are the way they are, etc.

There are some key events that take place in the world's past, prior to where you begin in the game, that inform a lot of what's going on, and ultimately where the game leads. There's this sort of conspiracy taking place. There are people who know the truth of what's going on, but keep it very "hushed" for a variety of reasons, for the sake of the protagonist, for all the peoples of this world, and for the preservation of the "knowing" individuals themselves.

There's a lot of deception playing out on a few different levels, and my goal is to have these things sorta dropped like "hints" throughout the game so that, when the player reaches the end, and things begin to come together - all these individual threads that seem unrelated, but are all ultimately part of the same yarn, leading to the same place - there's a kind of "a ha!" moment, where suddenly seemingly innocuous remarks made by certain characters take on a world of meaning.

As an example, in the movie, The Matrix. Toward the beginning, Neo gets into the car with Trinity, Switch and Apoc to go meet Morpheus. When he hesitates to lift his shirt for the bug probe, Switch stops the car and says to him "Listen up, Copper Top". Now, to someone seeing that movie for the first time and having no idea what it's about (such as myself) that remark seems completely random and out of place; like some oddball insult. After you learn what the Matrix is about, and that humans are, in fact, batteries for the machines, that remark is actually quite relevant.

There's another example which may be rather spoilerish, so I won't go too far into it... In the game Bioshock: Infinite, in the opening.. There's a conversation between the two characters. They're discussing rowing the boat toward the dock, and the following conversation takes place (paraphrased slightly):
Woman: "Maybe you should ask him to help"
Man: "I could, but it wouldn't make any difference"
Woman: "Why not?"
Man: "Because he doesn't row!"
Woman: "He doesn't row?"
Man: "No. He doesn't row"
Woman: "Ah. I see your point"

Now, not knowing anything about the game, that little dialog means absolutley nothing. Just two odd people having a strange conversation. It's only later on that you find the discussion makes perfect sense.

That's what I'm going for here. Now, that's not to say I'm anything even remotely in the same ballpark as the Wachowskis, or Ken Levine, but that's what I'm after.

Now, in order for me to achieve that, all of the pieces have to fit together and make sense for the people who are helping to create the game. For that to happen, I have to make sure I have all the T's crossed and I's dotted, that everything is clearly explained and linked together.

And that's what's overwhelming me (in part). I don't even know where to begin organizing all that. I think a Wiki that cross-references things could be a big help (so people can click on the names of events, characters, places, etc. that they may not have been introduced to yet at that point, to learn of them). Though I fear they could easily get lost in all the link chasing lol...

There's got to be some kind of tricks writers use to organize and maintain the threads of a story as they're writing it. Especially those that have multiple themes going at once, which all have to tie together at the end.

So... that's a very long-winded response, and I apologize lol. Brevity isn't always one of my strengths

if you are writing a documentary...like the documentary of ancient Egypt. you would provide as much backdrop and history as you could as you were telling the story.

If you are writing a novel, you give as little as possible of information as possible. Even when you are tempted to cheat, don't do it. You would be surprised how much of that information gets slowly leaked in there throughout a whole novel. And it makes discovering the world more of an on-going adventure. for example...you don't have to go on about how tall a mountain is, what creatures live on that mountain...blah blah blah. but if they took an epic adventure on that mountain...had character's struggling with the long climb over it, and then had them fight creatures, readers will then say to themselves..."man, that must have been a really tall mountain, and a very dangerous place to go." So do not be overly descriptive about anything. make everything as adventurous as possible.

(06-08-2013 02:27 PM)Shatterstar Wrote:  if you are writing a documentary...like the documentary of ancient Egypt. you would provide as much backdrop and history as you could as you were telling the story.

If you are writing a novel, you give as little as possible of information as possible. Even when you are tempted to cheat, don't do it. You would be surprised how much of that information gets slowly leaked in there throughout a whole novel. And it makes discovering the world more of an on-going adventure. for example...you don't have to go on about how tall a mountain is, what creatures live on that mountain...blah blah blah. but if they took an epic adventure on that mountain...had character's struggling with the long climb over it, and then had them fight creatures, readers will then say to themselves..."man, that must have been a really tall mountain, and a very dangerous place to go." So do not be overly descriptive about anything. make everything as adventurous as possible.

Thanks! That will be very helpful advice for when the story is being written to be conveyed to the player.

I think we're talking about two different things here, though.

You seem to be focusing on how the game/story will be revealed to the players. Your advice to that end is quite sound.

However, I'm not that far yet.

I'm talking about the actual creation of the game; the "design document". Creating a kind of 'encyclopedia', or a resource for the world, the lore, the races, the events, etc. I'm trying to create a document which designers will be able to refer to while creating the content, story arcs, dialog, locations, etc.

The people making the game need to know all that information up front, and have access to a reference that provides it, so that all those different threads, details and references make sense and don't leave them confused.

What I'm looking to create right now will never be seen by the players. It will only be seen or used by the people making the game.

What's complicating it for me is that I'm having trouble figuring out a way to get all that information out of my head in a way that will be clear and organized to the designers/writers/etc.

So, I'm looking for some advice/tips on how to create an organized reference document for the designers whom will eventually be working on the project. A basic skeleton or template, or perhaps an effective "strategy" to organizing and relating such content.

Hopefully I explained myself well..

oh well...why didn't you say so. what you are wanting to make is called a GDD, stands for Game Design Document. This link should help you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaRF4pjyK3U

Hi,

After reading your post - If you haven't done this yet - I think it would be a good idea to start creating a game design document about your game idea. As a design document evolves, it will become a structured and hierarchical source of information about your game world.

Here are some tips that can be helpful about writing a structured game design document, starting from 0:

1- start with a one pager: In a one page design document, try to describe your game concept in one single page. This is really not easy for big games, but you 'll have to do this to be able to convince people of your game idea. People don't want to read 100 pages if they don't know yet if they like the project. Think on what's written on the back of a retail game or DVD's. Describe the platform, the type of game, the audience you want to reach, the story in a few lines, ...

2- create a ten-page document: explain some main features of the gameplay, shortly describe some important characters, a little bit of history about your game world,... Talk about the sphere, what is (and is not) possible for the player (gameplay, actions, skills,...).

Important: include a table of contents from the start of this document.
Divide your subjects hierarchically: user headers, sub headers, etc.
The table of contents will create structure in your document, and keep the structure evolving in your final document. In microsoft office word, you can easily update the table of contents if changes are made.

3 - from the ten-pager, you create the final design document. Expand on the structure you already created and go more into detail, cover "less important" subjects, features, controls and rules. Myself, I put the story in a different document with a similar structure. If you have a big story to tell, that's maybe an option too.

I'm also someone who thinks in a very visual way, but I don't have a problem to write out my ideas, although words can not always easily cover the whole picture of a visual idea.
You wrote that you can verbally explain your ideas well, maybe it would be an idea to record yourself explaining and then use the recording afterwards to write the ideas down?

I hope this helps, good luck!

Hey folks,

I seem to be doing a horrible job of explaining myself here lol.

Yeah, what I need to create is a design document, that much I know; I just hadn't specifically said as much 'til my last post.

The issue I'm having isn't with what has to be conveyed. It's with how to convey something that has many different details, names, places, concepts, etc, which all have to be tracked and cross-referenced, and do so in a way that won't completely confuse or "lose" someone reading it.

Are there proven strategies of organizing and delivering information, in a design document format, that have proven helpful for others? Specific techniques or methods?

I do like your concept for the progressively more detailed documents, though, Ezequel.

Thanks again for the feedback!

Edit 1: Talking to a friend of mine, who happens to be a hobbyist writer, I've come up with an approach I think will work really well for me. So... we'll see!

Edit 2: Incidentally, here's a page I found that does a good job of explaining the "visual thinking" bit I mentioned earlier. The 3rd and 4th paragraph of that first post do a pretty good job of summing up what my issue tends to be.. finding a way to adequately put things into words. And, to compound that, finding a way to put a series of detailed "visual concepts" into words in a way that makes sense. It's not very fun! lol

Edit 3: Helps if I actually link the article I'm referring to! Genius!