(02-13-2015 10:52 AM)georgatos7 Wrote:  [...] something like a features/showcase video as the first video and then the tutorial videos as they are and then the screens.

Check the first video

(02-13-2015 10:54 AM)Tottel Wrote:  

(02-13-2015 10:52 AM)georgatos7 Wrote:  [...] something like a features/showcase video as the first video and then the tutorial videos as they are and then the screens.

Check the first video

Ye.. i've seen it Tottel but imo it's not what people would like to see first in order to get a good idea of the engine. I mean it doesn't even have any text or commentary to relate it to Esenthel and it's too generic and non-specific.

I would like something like this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMJtY3O7UNc

So an Esenthel engine logo intro, a nice fast techy music, some text labels on the bottom and side presenting the features and showcase such as:

- World Editor.
- Terrain editing, leveling and brushes.
- Object painter.
- Water (Lake, Rivers) with real-time reflections.
- World Streaming - Unlimited Sized Worlds.
- Pathfinding.
- Mesh Editor / Automatic LOD creation, Bone editing.
- Camera and per object Motion Blur, SSAO, DOF, Bloom, Glow, HDR Tone Mapping, Atmospheric sky, Sunrays, Fog, AA techniques.
- Sub Surface scattering, Fur rendering, DX11 Tesselation.
- Builti-in Particle system.
- Physics, Ragdolls, Vehicle Physics, Cloth, Destructible Objects.
- Easy to use Built-in Gui system.
- Easy to use Built-in code editor with autocomplete and other features.
- Collaborative development.
- Multiplatform and No Plugin Web-Integration.
- Native MMO support / Networking.
- Multithreading.
- 64bit support.
- 100s of tutorials.
- Affordable price / No royalties.
- Showcase of Games and tech demos being made with the engine.

And all these can fit in a 2-3min video with each feature taking from 3-10 seconds. It might take a while to make a quality vid but it will be well worth it since steam can be a huge chapter for any product, that's just my opinion though.

Imo you not only have to have a nice product but you need to present it nicely also, i mean i don't wanna name other products but there are engines greenlighted with half of those features and no actual commercial titles released!

I don't think you have to show HOW it's done in that first video. Why not just a showcase of different titles + technology demos, like you said?

I think there could be a 2nd video right after with all the things that you listed.

Yeah you could split those things up or anything along those lines will do for sure. It would be a matter of preference at this point.

(02-13-2015 12:35 PM)georgatos7 Wrote:  ...
So an Esenthel engine logo intro, a nice fast techy music, some text labels on the bottom and side presenting the features and showcase such as:

- World Editor.
- Terrain editing, leveling and brushes.
- Object painter.
- Water (Lake, Rivers) with real-time reflections.
- World Streaming - Unlimited Sized Worlds.
- Pathfinding.
- Mesh Editor / Automatic LOD creation, Bone editing.
- Camera and per object Motion Blur, SSAO, DOF, Bloom, Glow, HDR Tone Mapping, Atmospheric sky, Sunrays, Fog, AA techniques.
- Sub Surface scattering, Fur rendering, DX11 Tesselation.
- Builti-in Particle system.
- Physics, Ragdolls, Vehicle Physics, Cloth, Destructible Objects.
- Easy to use Built-in Gui system.
- Easy to use Built-in code editor with autocomplete and other features.
- Collaborative development.
- Multiplatform and No Plugin Web-Integration.
- Native MMO support / Networking.
- Multithreading.
- 64bit support.
- 100s of tutorials.
- Affordable price / No royalties.
- Showcase of Games and tech demos being made with the engine.

And all these can fit in a 2-3min video with each feature taking from 3-10 seconds. It might take a while to make a quality vid but it will be well worth it since steam can be a huge chapter for any product, that's just my opinion though.
...

Great job on listing these ... too many features are not immediately obvious in Esenthel and need to be stated as it's potentially a huge selling point. There is nothing better imo than a quick visual introduction to features like these and I believe it would have a much bigger impact.

I'm sure most of us Esenthel users would be more than happy to forego a months worth of updates/bug fixes etc if Greg were to concentrate full time on putting something like this together. I'd like to see Esenthel greenlit to provide Esenthel with a bigger user base and more financial security.

(02-14-2015 01:06 PM)Pixel Perfect Wrote:  I'm sure most of us Esenthel users would be more than happy to forego a months worth of updates/bug fixes etc if Greg were to concentrate full time on putting something like this together. I'd like to see Esenthel greenlit to provide Esenthel with a bigger user base and more financial security.

That's my point of view also, that would have been a huge step.

I'm checking the game development software on Steam and I am getting frustrated. Why is there so much crap on there already, but Esenthel hasn't been accepted yet? :(

Because it needs a momentum of users voting on it. If Steam doesn't see that something can't keep the crowd interested, they probably wouldn't want to sell it.
What helps a lot is a completed Kickstarter campaign. Why not do that in combination with Greenlight?

A few years ago, when I was in the 'market' for game engines, I evaluated quite a few of them, started with OpenSource/free ones at first, gave up on them, then tried to find an affordable indie engine. After It felt I explored all the options it came down to basically one engine for me, but I didn't even know about Esenthel at that time, I think not until I stumbled upon some posts from a disgruntled user, just before I decided to buy.

I took a look, but even though it seemed EE offered more, that engine's presentation was just done so much more effectively, because I think that's the sole reason I bought it over EE (and also because I was tired of the whole process and didn't give EE a proper spin).


So how was it different?

- complete online documentation (wiki, api docs, tutorials), which you could view before buying

- active user gallery (prominently displayed, not hidden in a sub menu)
Just so many benefits to having one... people post and browse the website a bit more, which makes it feel more alive (raise of hands - who here wanted to show something but didn't want to create a full blown showcase post, out of whatever reasons?). People experiment and do all kinds of amazing stuff, you want to capitalize on that, your printed feature list is "what this engine is", while the gallery is "what this engine can be" kind of thing. Also, for a potential user wanting to make a specific kind of game, just by browsing the gallery and finding a few people doing that type of thing, will greatly increase his perception that this is the engine for his game.

- clean & professional web design
The sleek web design gave the impression of seriousness and professionalism.
Live chatbox and shoutbox (called status updates, kind of like a tweet) integrated into the website, may seem like a gimmick, but it's quite useful at times and leads to more activity on the site. (People here already expressed some interest, but I guess the core user base is too small for a dedicated irc channel or something like that)
For example there was a rotation of (curated) impressive renders in the pages header, which could be submitted by users also, sort of reinforcing the effects of what I just said above (activity & impressions).

- carefully selected and curated showcase pieces (art & level design by commissioned artist, ie. for splash screens, tech demos, feature videos & tutorials etc..)
Even tutorials and simple new feature demonstrations featured selected assets that worked to give the impression of an AAA game in progress. Overall the engine almost had a theme to it, most everything was done in a HL2/S.T.A.L.K.E.R. aesthetic. There was a tech demo that had assets and level design done by a pro artist, which had a huge impact. I believe this aesthetic was or still is that engines biggest appeal (or conversion factor)
(well Epic has the right idea for their tech demos, works like cryptonite to daydreaming gamedevs)

- face & name presence from developer on forums, tutorials, feature videos, etc.
Knowing someone by his real name, and after seeing him a few times and listening to his voice can help establish a more personal connection, and you feel a bit as if you know that person, which helps a lot in certain business situations.

- more online presence and mention
Good for brand reinforcement and reaching new people. Articles, reviews, mentions etc on other sites all help obviously. What also helps is just posting about new releases on sites like gamedev.net from time to time. Donate EE to a youth center/organization. Hold competitions (best game from the demo version gets you some months of subscription). Attend various gamedev events, at some you can submit for a presentation/lecture/panel, better yet would be to hold a workshop (make a EE game in 1h or something).

You should consider sponsoring a game jam. Highly targeted active advertising, everyone entering is a gamedev, will know about the prize and almost surely check it out. It also gets you decent exposure, not every game in the jam/comp will be seen by visitors but everyone will see/hear about the prize. They also get mentioned on other sites along with what the prize is.

- .. a lot more, this is just from the top of my head and I'm not an expert.



Well, I feel I typed out a whole article, I do apologize for the long read but I think that marketing is what is holding EE back. "If you build great things they shall come" strategy is not working out anymore in this day and age...

I agree 100% with para.
Now, obviously doing all this right requires a lot of effort and a bit of money. Prioritize first, start with the most prominent piece: the website.
Make it modern and slick and convince some of your licensees to record some in-game footage of their work. Use that to create a <proper> promotion video. Let others give your their opinion on it and don't be happy if just 3-5 people say it looks great. Strive for quality and ask for brutally honest opinions.

I agree with every word that Para writes. In fact l still goes more to that place which l think he was talking about and that because of the reasons he described. I go there knowing that EE is a better engine. Game developing for hobbyist which l guess most of us are, is not just a question of technical details and features. What l think is even more important is to have a living community where discussions, requests, tips and indidual blogs are well visible. Not just a simple forum. The users should be able to show their work, write articles, tutorials and so on. This place should be the most important place at the website, the place where you return to each day checking what's going on. Right now EE has no identity as just such a place is missing. Having just a forum is far from enough. Documentation is there kind of, but when coming down to actually code the game you have the sample apps which helps. But what l would like to see is pages divide into natural parts like "Sky & Clouds", "Character Control", "Animation", "Collisions", "Camera" and so on, where each parts shows which classes that are involved (with links to them) and some simple sample of their usage. Place for comments there also. I could give more examples of how to make the place more alive and like a natural home for the users, but l think you get the idea. Right now EE is not such a place, but with some changes it could be. That's one good way to make the site AND the engine more popular I think.

Para has pretty much nailed it! Unfortunately it's rarely the case in this world that sales figures are driven purely by the quality of the product but more so by the effectiveness of the marketing.

There is no question of the quality of the Esenthel engine and the integrity of its author but the current engine is not really aimed at the casual amateur game designer which is where 95% of the sales are. Most of that marketplace will never finish a game or even get close but they do provide good revenue to support small Game Engine/API developers.

The other prominent 'one man' game engine currently available on Steam has effective marketing to attract these buyers, not because it is a better engine ... it simply isn't or is ever likely to be, but it does tick a lot of the boxes for the first time buyer. The fact that it subsequently fails to deliver on many levels is beside the point (assuming that sales revenue is the primary motivation) ... the sales are already made and most of the purchasers will have abandoned game design long before they realise that anyhow, having realised it takes long term commitment and hard earned skills!

We all know Esenthel is an exceptionally well designed and comprehensive game engine but one probably better suited to developers who know what they are doing and already have good programming skills. As such it is likely to appeal to a smaller marketplace.

I believe more effective marketing of Esenthel as it stands should and would attract more license sales, however if Greg is looking for mass sales (and I'm far from convinced that's the case here) then I believe the engine interface would need to fundamentally change to attract that.

great!good luck.

Hey, just noticed that EE has been Greenlit! When did this happen? That is great news.

That is great news. Love to know what happens next.